Monsey Underworld
I lay next to Heshy on the couch, comforted by the warmth of his body. As usual, the bachelor pad that Mendy and Heshy shared was filled with assorted members of the Monsey underworld. Most were ex-Chasidic, whether or not they had abandoned the traditional garb, and others were like me – half frum, ex-Yeshivish, disillusioned but happy to have found a group that accepted us unquestioningly. There was plenty of beer, pot, and cigarettes, but I didn’t need any of it. This was the one place where I could let down my guard.
Mendy and Heshy’s apartment was more than just a “hang out”. It was a reprieve from the real world, where everything was a painful reminder of the fact that I lived in limbo, on the fence of religiosity. When I dropped out of Bais Yaakov, most of my friendships evaporated. Phone conversations that used to last forever were reduced to awkward niceties, mostly just a quick “Hi, how are you,” a shameless attempt at digging for the latest salacious details of my life, and a dash of pity thrown in for good measure.
It was understandable, really. In a place where the slightest deviation from conformity was a gaping deformity, inviting hushed whispers or outright ridicule, a normal girl who dropped out of high school was nothing less than a community scandal. I had not yet made my decision to leave religion, and yet I was shunned. But the secular world was still unfamiliar territory. I had no shared experiences with secular teens, no common ground. The best thing about the Monsey underworld was that everyone understood that and much more without a word of explanation.
Several of the guys watched the flat screen television without much interest as they talked to each other in a mixture of English and Yiddish that I only partially understood. Two girls in the kitchen did their best to make a batch of nachos, which turned out surprisingly well considering that they were drunk or high and very possibly both. Out of the corner of my eye, I spotted Mendy leading a girl he had just brought home across the living room to his bedroom, a very self-satisfied “cat that ate the canary” look on his face.
Mendy was a bit of a mystery. He didn’t look it, but he was only seventeen despite a driver’s license that said he was twenty two, and he always had plenty of money to throw around. The official story was that his parents threw him out of their home years ago and that he managed to gain success in business deals through sheer charisma, but I strongly suspected he was involved in something illegal. I never did find out. We talked sometimes, but there was an unspoken boundary. I belonged to Heshy – despite the fact that we didn’t actually date – and I was thus a girl Mendy could not have.
Heshy absent mindedly stroked my hair. We were content to be silent, our couch an island in the sea of activity. It was an odd relationship; casual and blessedly simple. I had broken up with a boyfriend a few months before and desperately needed a way to stop pining for him. That was compounded by the fact that it was summer, which somehow made sex an even more ever-present preoccupation. Heshy was happy to kiss me, caress me and spend hours in bed in our own little world. It was intensely freeing and even healing – for both of us.
There were no mind games. I demanded nothing, and I think that Heshy was a little confused by that. When I called, I had no interest in blathering endlessly. I asked if I could come over, and he always said I could. After sex we would lie together, naked, luxuriating in the chaos of the twisted sheets. We would stare at the ceiling in the afterglow and talk – more as friends than lovers.
Every so often I was abruptly reminded of the vastly different worlds Heshy and I came from. Despite the heavy accent, it was easy to forget. Payess and Chasidic garb had long been traded for jeans, t-shirts and stylish haircuts, but attitudes were indelible. Heshy and the other ex-Chasidic guys were raised on morals grounded in religious belief, but that’s all they knew. Now there were no more rules. Civil law was viewed as a mere inconvenience, easily evaded. I once told Heshy that eventually it would catch up with him, but I didn’t want to nag and decided to just keep quiet.
“Leeba?”
I had almost fallen asleep next to Heshy, but one of the newer guys called my name. Yoely was thin, with dark hair, still wearing the full levush. He blushed slightly. I looked at him quizzically.
“Can I have sex with you?”
Speechless, I turned to Heshy. Heshy yawned and said: “Whatever, if you want to it’s cool with me.”
“No – definitely not,” I said, fuming.
“Why not?” Yoely asked, confusion written all over his face.
It dawned on me that neither Heshy nor Yoely really had a handle on the way the sexes interact outside the Chasidic community. I wasn’t well versed in the subtleties of male-female interaction, but I felt disrespected. Being asked for sex outright was offensive, and I knew I was right to feel that way. But once I realized it was a genuine mistake, I was more forgiving.
“Because. Just because.” I told Yoely. I turned away, and the conversation was over.
I didn’t want to hurt Yoely. Everyone in the Monsey underworld was adrift in his or her own way. I was just lucky enough to be farther along my journey than Yoely, despite the hurdles looming ahead. I snuggled closer to Heshy and closed my eyes. Things at the apartment were beginning to quiet down. I felt an overwhelming sense of peace. For the moment, I felt safe. I was among family.
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(tears in eyes) Just simply beautiful.
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This is a beautifully written piece.
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Its ge’nei’ves daas if you don’t look your avatar. It definitely gave the story a whole new dimension. Smiles.
Having bulrb that. I have to say. As one that, looks chassid and was raised chassid, I was blushing at the idea. I say, Yoelys know better then that. You and your people are bad news if it would all be accordingly.
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Sublime, just sublime!
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Leeba
I think you’re touching on a subtle theme that I have observed as well. I find that many times when adolescent chasiddim rid themselves of the yoke of religious rules and laws they equate the same apparent lawlessness to the rules and laws society abides by. I’m not sure if it’s because they have difficulties differentiating between religious law and secular law or it’s just a product of religious nihilism that they apply to every aspect of their lives. They seem so drunk with their new found freedom that they think everything is permitted.
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Loved this line;
. In a place where the slightest deviation from conformity was a gaping deformity,
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Leeba, Very well written piece. From another point of view, frum people, and specially Chasidic people are raised that a goy is tome, (un-pure) filthy and low, filthy in terms of immoral and in many ways or mostly engaging in sexual activity and that includes not dressing modestly or even wearing pants. Its a sad fact that they are brainwashed about that way all day long, even to the point of giving your life, its one of the three sins one should die for rather than to commit it. When one leaves the community aside from being unaware of the basic respect from human to human and basic morals and cultural differences as you pointed out, some also see it like if you are not frum then you are immoral therefore it equals to sex.. and that’s normal now since we are both not frum-immoral. The nice thing about you is how you were so forgiving once you realized (chaped…
) where he comes from. I come from the same background, but I would never have the guts ask point blank for sex, I guess I think to much of myself to accept the rejection…I’d rather wait for the right opportunity with someone that wants me…
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“Things at the apartment were beginning to quiet down. I felt an overwhelming sense of peace. For the moment, I felt safe. I was among family”
The irony of these words.
You were in an environment that to the *normal teenager* would be social/emotionally devastating.
But for you, it was safe. It was wholesome. It was family.
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Beautifully written. You capture the false views of the outside world that hamper the adjustment. There is another kind of story I would love to see. It involves a character who brings the best of chasidus into the outside world while jettisoning its worst features.
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Yoely wasn’t being weird because he’s from a Hassidic background; he was actually being a lot more polite than most young men his age in America today.
Have you ever heard of date rape? Have you ever been to a real American party?
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Rupture,
“I’m not sure if it’s because they have difficulties differentiating between religious law and secular law or it’s just a product of religious nihilism that they apply to every aspect of their lives.”
I think it’s more a product of the religious world being generally dismissive of civil law. But they at least have some alternate framework of rules, however inadequate.
But this leads to a more fundamental question: is civil law something one must absolutely value? Secular people often raise their children with strong emphasis on being law-abiding citizens. But civil law too can be tyrannical and oppressive, sometimes unjustly imposing its “justice” and wreaking havoc with people’s lives. Of course, society needs laws. But I’m not sure that unquestioning fealty to them is such a great value. A personal sense of right and wrong is far more admirable, as subjective as that might be.
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Osvorf — “I come from the same background, but I would never have the guts ask point blank for sex.”
Yoely seems more naive than gutsy to me. He seems like one who is unaware of sex’s significance beyond just fucking.
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Raw and vivid. Heshy seems street wise though, and his “Whatever, if you want to it’s cool with me” attitude, felt to me to be far worse than Yoely’s simple naivety.
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Yoely evokes deep sympathy. His faux pas is reminiscent of the chassidic newlywed Yoely asking his wife to bed. The awkward, mechanical way of initiating things is probably rooted in a lifetime of segregation which results in confused and unnatural interactions with the opposite sex.
Learning the cultural norms and getting past ingrained gender barriers is unfortunately a very extensive part of this guy’s foreplay.
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He said what other men date think. It takes a lethal mix of cojones and naivete. Hey, Judge, Can I bribe you?
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I’ve been thinking about this story and why it moved me all day. I believe that it goes beyond a Hasid making a clumsy pass. We’re all “Yoeli”, born clueless, stepping out into the world through trial and error. We go nowhere if we don’t try. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. Sometimes we get slapped in the face and are afraid to try again. Sometimes Yoeli encounters Leeba (real name, or also symbolic?) the answer “no” delivered without hard feelings and the knowledge that you can still be friends. In a way, the story taps into the “early” Hasidic stories, of the Baal Shem Tov and Reb Levi Itzhak. Again, thanks Leeba.
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I am very naive about some of these things even though I am past 40.
What confuses me is somehow there is a limited number of people that stop alng the path at a middle ground.
Why does it seem that a person makes a decision to leave the Chassidus or Yeshivish and the next stop is the scene that is described in this article.
Is there anything we can do? I’d love to hear from some of the folks who have traveled this path. I’d really like to understand.
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BTW, I am a “moderne”, I wear colored clothing on weekdays and a beck on Shabbos, am a professional with college, learn a number of times a week and OMG have a television in my house.
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JD,
People leave for many reasons, but one very common denominator revolves around a) the people left behind – who often won’t differentiate between someone who leaves to become ‘modern’ and ‘frie’. And b) the said person’s own feeling towards owning a TV and driving on shabbos – both are outlawed behaviors.
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leeba your peice was very well written. its nice that you can forgive.
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Shtreimel, Do the folks that are leaving examine the world in which they are heading or do they just head straight for the bottom?
Is there really no differentiation in the system between a TV and driving on Shabbos? Can’t folks figure that out on their own?
I’m sorry for all the questions, I’d like to understand. There needs to be a mid-point for people to land.
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Very lovely–a brilliantly portrayed personal narrative. Very brave of you to put this story out there for us. Well done.
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There needs to be a mid-point for people to land.
JD you’re right. And it’s the lucky fellow who finds it.
The unfortunate reality though is, that once a person starts flouting the rules it becomes difficult to know what the guidelines are. Once the boundaries have been pushed further, or redrawn, it is too easy to erase those lines altogether.
To quote a devil of a blogger: “Just do it a couple times, it’ll feel natural. Like they say, ‘Transgress, repeat, yada, yada.’”
Sin once, repeat. It getting easier with every try? it actually works that way.
It isn’t that one shan’t change. Change can be good! But as I’ve said before: So long as you know your destination, hop aboard the train, and be it local or express – and I’ll wish ya luck on your journey.
But starting a trip with no inkling of your final destination is foolhardy. Too soon (and too late) you might find yourself in unfamiliar territory, perhaps even a dangerous locale – longing for but not finding, any way home.
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Thank you to everyone who commented. I actually wasn’t aware that this had been posted! I will be writing more soon.
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JD,
Most people I know, who left, aren’t headed to the bottom, and even those who arguably are headed to the bottom were far worse off within the system.
The differentiation isn’t always there sociologically speaking. Being shunned for social deviation is almost as strong, and often just as strong as torah transgression. Same can be said for the ‘deviator’ who can get comfortable deviating socially as well as religious wise. Keep in mind that for many, even withing the confines of religion, the torah means nothing more than a social contract.
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JD — Who says there’s no difference between Shabbos and not watching TV? Of course there is, and I imagine that most people know it. But those who leave are interested in neither.
It amazes me how many Modern Orthodox people will comment on blogs saying, “Don’t throw away the baby with the bathwater, give up the Chasidic lifestyle but no reason to discard Orthodoxy, yada, yada…” There’s no nice way to say this, but frankly, it’s a stupid argument. Those who leave often have a problem with Orthodoxy itself, not necessarily Chasidism. It’s the failure of the Modern Orthodox who are unable to think critically about their own lifestyle, but see all the flaws among the Chasidim. I for one, if I was to choose dogma and superstition, would go for the Chasidic flavor rather than the cold, dry, failing, and decrepit Modern Orthodoxy.
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“Once a person starts flouting the rules it becomes difficult to know what the guidelines are.”
Really, Tzippi. And what exactly are those guidelines? Laid down by whom?
But glad to see that old devil quoted. He must be making the rounds since he and I last met. Wise and insightful, he was. And he was right too. Give him my best if/when he swings your way. Oh, and hear him out, it’s worth it.
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It really is me – the one who wrote the article. It’s a new pseudonym though so I had some trouble keeping it straight.
I read all the comments, and there were some excellent insights from several people. For anyone who’s wondering, I changed some details, especially names, to protect identities. However this did happen.
At the time it wasn’t about partying as much as it was having a “home base”. People who haven’t gone through that weird transition wouldn’t really understand that.
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Rebel, my fur hat is in its nice round box in the front closet and doesn’t come out much anymore ‘cept maybe Purim, Simchas Torah and occasionally Yomim Noroim
However, I did not grow up “in the dogma” and I am trying to understand why people pass the mid-point.
That’s all, no criticism meant and if implied, I apologize.
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JD — Perhaps I was a bit harsh.
I don’t think there’s an automatic progression to the bottom; those are just the stories you hears about. There are many who find a healthy medium, but they’re not tragic cases, and therefore don’t merit mention in most circles.
Many who’ve left do well in school and career. I am personally friends with OTD’s who’ve gone on to top schools (Harvard, Columbia, MIT, Cornell, NYU, just to name a few) and have become doctors, attorneys, therapists, writers, actors, filmmakers, and much more. Those who get involved with drugs and promiscuous sex are a totally different category. (This is not to assume that the author is one of them; but it does seem like some readers are making that assumption.)
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Really, Tzippi. And what exactly are those guidelines? Laid down by whom?
HR – I was in no way implying that those guidelines are ‘correct’ or even protectors of proper conduct. I’m not even gonna say that one should abide by those guidelines. I was merely stating the oft observed fact, that once we disregard the guidelines set forth for us – prior to drawing our own – we’re bound to go sliding down an unforgiving (anti-Semitic?) slope – - that just won’t cooperate when we wish to stop.
Of course, even coming to our conclusions as to where we wanna be, and even setting forth a precise plan on howta get there, does not preclude the chances of finding ourselves on that slippery slope regardless. It’s a sad reality, but breaking the rules repeatedly will initiate a preprogrammed response. Our brains are wired that way. Funny little things.
Of course – if that is where ya wanna be, then it ain’t all bad. And for the record, it wasn’t the readers who assumed that the author was involved in drugs and promiscuous sex. It did not require major inference – the author was pretty much stating that.
Which makes JD’s statement spot on. Since the author came across as quite intelligent, it is just all that much sadder that this is the life she chose for herself.
She seems sweet, and I wish her well.
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Tzippi —
“Since the author came across as quite intelligent, it is just all that much sadder that this is the life she chose for herself.
She seems sweet, and I wish her well.
You don’t know that this is a life she chose for herself. As far as one can tell from the piece, this was a specific place and time. It could’ve been a passing phase, a young girl lost in the mire and confusion of a transitional lifestyle.
Nor did she claim she did drugs or engaged in promiscuous sex. It’s only the setting that made it seem that way.
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So sad.
There’s so much beauty in Yiddishkeit, although of course, just like every other society, we too have our faults. If only we could radiate our good side only.
There’s a saying which comes to mind:
Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I am certain that if we turned the focus onto our immediate family and away from our “extended family” – neighbors, mechitonim and “the gaass”, we would have far happier kids and far less OTD’s.
And Yoely and all the others like him would find themselves their very own life partner…..
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“And for the record, it wasn’t the readers who assumed that the author was involved in drugs and promiscuous sex. It did not require major inference – the author was pretty much stating that.”
Here is what the author herself states:
“There was plenty of beer, pot, and cigarettes, but I didn’t need any of it.”
Are you being judgemental, or am I being naive?
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“You don’t know that this is a life she chose for herself. As far as one can tell from the piece, this was a specific place and time. It could’ve been a passing phase, a young girl lost in the mire and confusion of a transitional lifestyle.”
It certainly was not the life I chose. I now live essentially as a non Jew. My Jewish friends from those days have had their ways catch up to them, and that is not an easy thing to watch.
When you’re a teenager, you need unconditional acceptance, and you’ll take it wherever you can find it. It’s really as simple as that. If it was in a place full of pot, cigarettes and promiscuous sex, so be it.
Yes I did have a pot brownie or two and definitely did most of my drinking before my twenty first birthday. As for promiscuous sex, that depends on how you define it. I certainly have no regrets.
This piece really is a snapshot into a very specific time and place. Please try to take it for what it is, a story about imperfect young people trying to find our way.
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I find it interesting how some of the chareidi police are trying to function as border police, trying to scare folks who are looking enviously but with uncertainty at the other side of the border.
So the comments are trying to make life across the border look as bad as possible. As we know from the experience of Communism in Russia and Eastern Europe, societies with walls to prevent people from leaving are in trouble.
In some neighborhoods the tznius police have powerful tools for intimidation. But once people have decided to leave and pay the family price they are ordinarily safe from the tznius goons. I am not surprised that they are augmenting their local hooliganism with Internet trashing. The Internet is free and open. No matter what they rule it can not be kept out. So they have to do their best to make the OTD life look unattractive.
If chareidism was more tolerant (yeah, I know it is an oxymoron) instead of OTD we would have more ADs (Alternative Derochim). But that is not likely at this point in the chareidi world. So people will make all-or-nothing choices. Yes, when people have to suddenly reconstruct their lives some of their choices will be foolish, or excessive.
I suspect that the decency outside will reflect the climate in their family and community. If people were rude and grasping they will be rude and grasping without any halachic limitation. If those around them were honest with evryone Chareidi, other Jews, non-Jews) the newly non-religious kid will probably be honest as well.
What disappears when people go OTD is compliance based on fear. What grows over time is an understanding of morality based on secular society’s shared moral code. It is a shame that some charedi guys think that a woman who weres jeans and a sleeveless shirt is a tramp. Non-jews and non-chareidim are generally much more aware that such clothing can cover anything from hyperpromiscuity to hyper-prudishness.
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There are so many different psychosocial explanations for why so many Xchasidim go rock bottom when they leave.
1. As rebel pointed out, Frum society emphasizes the importance of keeping Jewish law “iber ales”. If it is ok to cheat the governmental system to some degree, if my father collects welfare, why not do it all the way and get involved in credit card fraud?
2. Then we have the Xchosid with the “Jacob Stien worldview.” All goyim rape, cheat, abuse substances, phuck everything that moves etc. Now I am a goy. Now I do these things too.
3. Xchasidim often hate authority and are used to fighting the establishment, any establishment. As Tzippy pointed out, it becomes almost an addiction.
4. It takes a certain type of personality to break out of a mold. To rebel, to fight, to be aggressive and” in your face”, and to have an inherent lack of boundries. Within general society, people with this type of personality profile will often find themselves on the fringe. Xchasidim are no different.
5. The young man who leaves his family is struggling with extreme emotional turmoil. He is suffering because he left, and probably left because life was unbearable before he left. Sex, drugs, alcohol, these can all be means of self-medicating, of trying to heal what’s broken.
6. This last point might be painful for some, but let’s not kid ourselves. It is not easy to raise a happy family. It is not easy to be successful in business, to get an education, to be a law abiding citizen. It is much easier to follow your base desires and to party your youth away. There are many disenfranchised Chasidim who hate their way of life, but won’t leave it. Why, because in many cases they have too much to lose, and/or life isn’t that unbearable. They are popular and successful right where they are. Many Xchasidim who do chose to break all ties, never had that much vested in the first place. In other words, they didn’t make it in the frum world, and now have a very hard time making it in the non frum world. Exchanging one lifestyle for another won’t necessarily make your personal demons disappear. A misfit often remains a misfit no matter which clothes they wear.
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Question for all you unpious chevrah.
At what age did you know that you wanted to leave? At what age did you actually leave?
What was the relationship between that and shidduchim for you or your relatives.
I ask that in part because I have heard of a few cases where once someone realized they or their family were “damaged goods” there was no longer a motive for staying inside. Any truth to this for any of the unpious writers.
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YL,
Check out Eli Senerovitz’s excellent piece on the subject.
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this was an awesome piece i wish there was a way to help some of the chassidish youth transition with out landing in those situations.
the idea would be to have a safe and aceppting environment outside of the system. unfortunaly that place would get harrased and sued for “making kids OTD”. footsteps is great and all but doesnt cater to the time of the most need the lower teen years.
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I read with envy the comments of the formerly frum. You see I was raised in with a Modern Orthodox attitude in in a chasidic world. I am now in my 60’s and when my wife & I were newly married we tried unsuccessfully to live outside of the world which we have come to know. We drove on & watched TV on Shabbos, ate anything we pleased but went to shul shabbos morning but not Friday night. When children arrived on the scene we both sensed that we have alienated the people we cared about most So we decided to give the impression that we were one of them. But now at the end of my life the folks we did not to alienate are dead but they have been replaced by the kids who have grown into frum people. So the tables have turned and I am back on the same merry go round. I regret that I did not drop orthodoxy completely 40 years ago
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HT
I basically agree with the 6 reasons you gave for the” X chusid turned social and moral pariah” phenomenon. But in my humble opinion you omitted a very important factor. It might even be the dominat factor for the phenomenon.
Morality in the Orthodox mindset is completely dependant on the existence of God. Whether theologically it’s supposed to be that way is a whole different discussion. I’m sure you are aware of the Rambam about the two kinds of transgressions. Certain averois the person is allowed and even encouraged to pursue and desire, but he is supposed to refrain because God forbade them. Averois like eating forbidden foods, desecrating the holy Sabbath, etc. Other averois, the Rambam contends the person has to refrain from them because they are morally improper. These are: incestual relationships, and most “beyn odom le’chaveroy” averoiys. So acoording to the Rambam one can say morality exists independent of god. We don’t need a Torah to forbid certain things; certain things should be self understood that they are improper. But the Rambam’s position is questionable. Many other Rishonim posit that without the Torah everything would be permitted. There is no morality independent of the Toireh. Morality is a concept that is created and incorporated through the guidelines God established in his book. There is also the gemureh of “haneg b’midoiysuv” (follow in his measures) “ma hu rachum, af atuh rachum; ma hu chanun af atuh chanun, etc”, where it sounds that there is no place for personal transcendence were it not an attribute of God that we are supposed to follow. We are supposed to adopt and refine our personality in a certain mold, so that it fits with what God deems estimable. Not that these traits are enviable on their own right.
I got a bit carried away, but my main point is, whether morality exists on its own or not subsiding, the way we teach morality to our kids is totally God focused. “You don’t do so and so because god doesn’t approve of it, you don’t steal, kill, rape, etc because its “user”.” Understandably, the natural progression of things is that in the event one losses God, morality will follow closely behind it.
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Wow, Harvey, that’s pretty intense. I hate to think of other people’s lives as tragic, but your last sentence should be a warning to others. As difficult as the leaving process seems, it’s a great tragedy to live life with regrets.
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> footsteps is great and all but doesnt cater to the time of the most need the lower teen years.
A person in the lower teen years is expected to abide by the rules and lifestyle his/her parents (and their representatives, the schools) choose. Legitimate organizations would not work behind parents’ backs. Now, if only parents and schools were to face up to the fact that there are other “drachim” and that a child might want to follow them as an adult and that it would be OK (and nice if we can all still be family and friends) and give them the tools to be safe and successful regardless of their choice.
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thats what i am talking about i wish there was a way to have a place like that in the chassidish world. there are places in crown height, flatbush and boroughpark even lakewood has a place. i know they push judaism but its better than the alternative of getting stoned and chillin with no supervision in a random apartment.
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A lot of people seem to be shocked by the scene in Mendy and Heshy’s apartment. In the “western” world, such behavior is not unusual. It is what young people do.
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…young adults, we should hope
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RandC,
You make a very valid point. This attitude is probably more subconscious though, ingrained perhaps in the frum psyche than it is an actual conscious calculation that people who leave make.
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yea it is unusual most people in the middle class would not allow their kids in the house with out some sort of supervision.
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“i know they push judaism but its better than the alternative of getting stoned and chillin with no supervision in a random apartment.”
That depends entirely on your perspective. Off the derech teens have had their fill of frum organizations and authority in general. They don’t want to have anything to do with anyone trying to tell them what to do.
The fringe in Monsey was once able to congregate at local pizza shops and the like, but the rabbonim shut that down. So for a while now, the off the derech crowd meets at random apartments where there is no supervision whatsoever. And many kids like it better that way anyway.
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i know i was in the scene, i went to several of my friends funerals because they got hooked on coke or heroin. they learned about it in apts like that. the places i described dont force anything but they def talk about judaism and there is def an agenda.
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Fakewood,
I don’t think the story talks about young teens. Regarding if it’s usual in the secular world: Maybe their parents wouldn’t allow them, but it happens anyway. It’s part of the usual secular rebel stage, from the 18 till like the 22.
Nice piece, Leeba.
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RandC,
On second thought, I eluded to your point already with point 2, only analyzing it from a different direction.
The Xchosid might think that the goy is totally immoral because he doesn’t have a torah.
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I thought of a reason number 7 as to why there is this Xchasidic underworld phenomenon out there.
It’s that of the self fulfilling prophecy.
It’s extremely tough to break the cycle if you have been branded a bum, a shaigetz, low life goodfornothing, since the day you stopped “taitling” with the chumish.
And what doesn’t help matters is that the classic ego strength mechanism of “I will show those bastards who I truly am. I will grow to be way more successful than them, ” can hardly work, when your society and elders view success and “making it” through a totally different prism.
We are driven to a very large degree by peer pressure and the natural urge to prove ourselves, especially to those who questioned our capabilities. But the Xchosid is in an almost no-win situation. What will impress the world, won’t impress* his* old world. Resigning to his old status of *bum*, is an easy self fulfilling prophecy.
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Ben Sorer Moreh
“In the “western” world, such behavior is not unusual. It is what young people do.”
Indeed! Animals also behave in a similar manner.
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Hey B, great to see you writing.
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WOW, what a great portrayal of De Carembault’s Syndrome – a condition of individuals & society characterized by a breakdown or absense of social norms & values, as in the case of an uprooted people !!!
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Leeba – please do explain why poor Yoely should not “fume” or be “offended” (ur words)by ur insensitivity & inability to be “forgiving” at once – “with NO hard feelings” (BSM’s words)? Maybee that’s what our ubiquitous big brother – HR – means when he proclaims his preference to the Hasidic flavor ! (He might also have been rejected just once to many by MO’s or feminists who believe as Greer does that “everyman should be fucked up the arse as a prelude to fucking a woman, so that he’ll know what it’s like to be the receiver. Otherwise, he’ll forever go about thinking that he’s doling out joy unlimited to every woman he fucks !”) And lEEBA, U ALSO CLAIM to have no regrets re: ur sexual “experiences”. But how would U know what it really feels like to discover “the magic touch”…?
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Tzipi – U put it well when U paraphrase Alice in saying that if u don’t know where ur going it makes no difference. But as far as it all getting to feel natural, I’ve seen OTD’s lament on FB the now flat taste of their Shabbos smokes that have by now lst all their zest ! HR – I can understand characterizing Harvey K’s status as “a great tragedy” – but what do the kids have to say about that ? LOVE U ALL !!!
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Leeba – Try out this story for size ( like in ur dressing room post.) A chareidi bochur walks into Dudy’s (BP- 20th century) and points to a TV that he wants to buy. Dudy says “sorry, I don’t sell to bochurim.” The fellow shaves his beard, etc. and returns two weeks later. Dudy still says “sorry, etc.” Six months later the guy returns bedizoned with nose and ear rings and Dudy still says “sorry!” The guy asks, ” Dudy, how did u recognize me ?” Dudy answers : ” Sorry Yoely (or JJ, or Yossy, etc. ); that’s a microwave – not a TV !”
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Yoely’s statement cracks me up. He apparently thinks that if you are not frum, then you automatically go to the other extreme and have sex with everyone. He doesn’t realize that goyim have standards, too, and that it is impolite to proposition someone who already committed to someone else (however tenuously). He’s so naive!
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How do new members find “the underground”?
How did you discover it?
Yoely’s question was shocking, but, maybe he doesn’t see sex as special. It’s just another exercise, like playing a one-on-one basketball game.
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Mendy Chossid, Yoely very well could have been offended. I wouldn’t have blamed him if he was. Rejection is never fun. However, Yoely was making the transition from the chasidish world to the secular world and he was going to have to learn certain basic norms sooner or later. Better that he have that particular interaction with me than with some girl at a bar who would slap him in the face and poor her drink in his lap.
“And lEEBA, U ALSO CLAIM to have no regrets re: ur sexual “experiences”. But how would U know what it really feels like to discover “the magic touch”…?”
I don’t have any regrets about sexual experiences I’ve had. In fact, I wish I hadn’t held off as long as I did.
The “magic touch” is a myth invented by a certain author of a particular book.
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Good writing. Very interesting look on such a situation like that.
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Leeba – couldn’t agree more with a kindred soul ! Shabbat Shallom to all !
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Do places like this still exist? My little sister is miserable in the Monsey area and I’d love for her to meet some nice people who don’t expect her to live in a box. (she doesn’t need the sex and drugs, but she will find it eventually with kids who aren’t Jewish, if she doesn’t find it among kids who are. She’s 16. I would want to visit myself, before I take her.
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The simple answer is yes, but I don’t know why you’d think it’s the kind of place you drop your younger sister at after inspecting it. It’s not a support group.
There’s a lot I’d like to say, but I’ll spare you and skip to the end: Don’t encourage her to hang out with a crowd like that. Get her into community college ASAP.
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Thanks for your honest feedback. I keep encouraging her to get good grades (in high school) so she can get into the college of her choice (and out of the house) ASAP.
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fakewood,
“yea it is unusual most people in the middle class would not allow their kids in the house with out some sort of supervision.”
i beg to differ. i grew up totally secular. very often, with both parents working outside the home and with more freedom to roam, middle class kids have similar experiences to those described. if i told you some of the stuff my friends and i were getting into in high school (and college), you’d flip. and yes, we were totally middle class kids with good grades coming from two parent homes and all of that other stuff.
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i partied in high school but it was always at the house where the parents werent home. most of the parents like mine made us tell them where we were and what we were up to. obviously i did not tell them everything but it really depended on the parents.
as for college hey thats what those years are for. i had blast and that could def describe what my apt was like.
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It is very good to have support when your family rejects you I like that you said that those people were your family b/c it is true sadly people get very deep into the drug scene b/c we were suffocated in our lives most of us did not have healthy families sometimes there are specific events that hurt us deeply and we turn to drugs not knowing where correct boundries are never having learned them.
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I remember a good friend of mine, a YU graduate, was telling that his two friends (also YU guys) became friendly with a cuople of chassidish guys who were toying with “being on the fringes”. They all ended up at a bar years ago where some kind of eclectic Jewish performance was to take place and there were girls there too – upper west side types as well as Stern College girls. One of the chassidish guys, simply went up to one of the girls and touched her breast – perhaps thinking like any baboon would – that since he’s not in boro park or flatbush that its “okay”. The girl screamed and slapped him, mayhem ensued. The YU guys were horrified and embarrassed, took the chassidic guys outside for a good “talking to”. It was both sad and comic how both guys were dumbfounded by the response. They actually thought that a more “modern” girl in a “bar” of all places would be okay with that. And I have to ask, what zoo do these people breed in??? Too many frum people think that if you go “off the derech” you automatically give up all of your values but yet, have no idea that it is possible to lead a perfectly sane life, without religion, and yet manage to be a morally sound individual. This type of mindset is instilled in us in yeshivos and bais yaakovs. ‘Goyim are bad’ and ‘we are the Chosen People’ and ‘God loves us more’. And other such nonsense. If half of these “at risk” kids knew that it was plausible to become even slightly more “modern”, get to a high school that actually gives recognized diplomas, get a college education, move to a neighborhood that is more broad minded and *normal* then perhaps they wouldnt all assume that leaving the “fold” means hanging out with sex and drug addicts and basically, becoming a bunch of soulless losers. The brainwashing effects are more harmful than can be imagined. (Noting “Fakewood’s” comment which is 100% on the money. How many overdoses could of been avoided if young people such as these *realized* that they have the ability and God-given right to pursue a life that actually Makes Sense!)
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sinat chinum , your so cold hearted ,no compassion, this person has been buried under piles & more piles of frum brainwashing, his upbringing has been so distorted, its hard to be the only sect in the universe that grasps the truth ,, cant call him autistic, nachon, his ilness has not found its name yet,buttt he is ill,trust me i know
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Im looking to join the underground, i need a ex chasidish gf
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Sorry, Berry, I’m spoken for. Seriously, though, there were times I thought it would have been cool to marry an ex-Chassid. Think of all the explaining I wouldn’t have had to do!
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