The ABC’s of Ignorance
Secular Education in the Chasidic World
[Opinion]
When I was a toddler, even before my mother started curling my little payess around her finger and brushing it with a bit of sugar-water, she taught me the English alphabet (after I had mastered the Alef Beis, of course). By the time I was enrolled in pre-school I knew that c-a-t spells cat. And while religious studies were always the priority, my parents, bless their souls, always encouraged my voracious reading habits. Mostly those consisted of Yiddish books, and a smattering of material from Artscroll, Feldheim, and their offshoots, but here and there I’d chance upon a secular title, and they wouldn’t make much of it.
But I was lucky. My classmates, save those few whose parents had an iota of foresight for their children’s ability to navigate the world of jobs and careers, saw English classes more or less akin to how secular kids treat after-school Jewish studies: a bother; something parents and educators half-heartedly seemed to want but didn’t care for it to be taken too seriously. The children took their cues from the adults, and the adults showed their lack of interest by their inattentiveness to report cards, PTA meetings, and their lax approach to misconduct during English classes. The state of secular education for Chasidic boys, therefore, is, and always has been, a sham; we know it, they know, but few care to raise it as an issue of concern, let alone do anything about it. (Secular education for girls is, for various reasons, far superior to that of boys; a subject for another discussion.)
There are a number of reasons Chasidim shun all but the very basics of secular studies for boys. Most often heard—particularly by inside apologists or outside “experts”—is that Torah study is considered the highest value and therefore energy expended elsewhere is deemed wasteful.
Which, in my opinion, is just another of those mantras we often hear about our world, echoed back by outsiders in books, articles, and the media in general, statements that sounds insightful and profound, but which every insider knows is a vast over-simplification. But we’ll get to that in a moment.
Another reason is perhaps the subtle anxiety – in varying degrees, depending on the particular Chasidic group – that secular studies are inherently insidious, the road down which leads to laxity in religious observance, and the discovery of the allures and temptations of the outside world. (And, in very extreme cases, apostasy.)
But the most truthful reason is also the most petty and unreflective: They simply don’t care for it. It is a stance taken simply by default, with little attentiveness to its reasons or ramifications. It is neither doctrinal nor ideological. It is a meme, a cultural idea that has taken hold with the ideological depth of the shtreimel and bekishe, adhered to fiercely for only vague and contrived reasons.
There is little in Classical Judaism to support the Chasidic disdain for secular studies or for the language of their non-Jewish neighbors. Many a religious work from the Golden Age of Spain was originally written in Classical Arabic. Rashi, the medieval Biblical and Talmudic scholar, seems to have been quite familiar with medieval French. And Yiddish, the very language of the Chasidim, indicates that German was widely used by early Ashkenazi Jews. Jewish scholars and sages throughout history were frequently known for at least rudimentary knowledge—and sometimes even deep expertise—in the fields of medicine, mathematics, and astronomy. Not to mention those who engaged the works of the ancient Greek philosophers, even if only to be dismissive of them.
The historical basis for shunning secular studies lies in the reactionary politics towards the efforts of the Jewish Enlightenment to modernize world Jewry. The 18th century rabbi of Pressburg, Rabbi Moses Sofer, led the battle, particularly in the Austro-Hungarian region. His rallying cry, “Chadash Asur min Hatorah”, loosely translated for this context to: all innovation is forbidden by the Torah—an almost-comical homiletic interpretation on a biblical verse intended for an entirely different milieu in an entirely different context—was embraced by most of the conservative elements of Orthodox Jewry, who used it to shun any deviation from tradition in principle or practice. In this two-century-old battle lies the extremism of Chasidic society that is characterized by what would otherwise be very peripheral concerns: namely, adherence to cultural trappings that have little basis in theological or doctrinal principles, including matters of dress, speech, and other forms of demonstrative separation from secular culture.
Today there is no Jewish Enlightenment. The serious ideological challenge to Orthodox Jewry that was once deemed a threat that required circling the wagons and declaring an unambiguous policy of with-us-or-against-us is long gone. But the remnants of that battle are still a mainstay of the Chasidic worldview, an unfortunate backward-gazing stance that holds an entire society captive to closed-mindedness and insularity.
I will admit that this issue has crept up on me with a degree of personal urgency, and it has to do with this very endeavor, Unpious.com. In trying to solicit submissions, it’s become painfully obvious that the pool of potential writers of decent quality is very, very small – certainly among men. Many an intelligent and talented individual, even one who is fairly well-read and has developed dissenting views from the mainstream Chasidic community, lacks the basic skills for developing and presenting a coherent essay in English.
But of course, I can hardly expect the Chasidic community to be sympathetic to the problems of the impious. There’s an argument to be made that it is precisely this kind of endeavor that would discourage Chasidim from emphasizing English language skills, lest it become too easy to engage with outside influences precisely of this website’s nature.
And that, of course, is part of the problem. Chastising a community for its values must come with an appreciation for the origin and basis for those values before trying to dissuade adherence to it. (Unless, of course, you are Abe Foxman, who, for instance, found it his business to chastise the Vatican for its refusal to remove part of a Latin prayer that affirms its commitment to proselytizing Jews. The absurdity should be obvious. Doctrinal issues cannot be argued against with talk of political necessity.)
It’s for this reason that I argue that the shunning of secular education has little basis in Orthodox tradition. And the problems I encounter in soliciting writers are merely the magnifying glass for highlighting the problem, but hardly the reason why I think it need be addressed.
Most importantly, adherence to archaic values that have long lost their raison d’être is all fine and good when it merely satisfies a sentimental attachment to a culture looked back upon fondly. In this case, however, it has significant ramifications, including the fact that this stance is not only increasingly impractical but sometimes even outright cruel.
As a young adult, already married with three children, I found myself desperately in need of a means for earning a living beyond the limited opportunities within the community. A friend, in similar financial straits, told me of a vocational course offered by an Orthodox organization in Manhattan, and we decided to both enroll. Since neither of us had high school diplomas, we were both required to take basic reading, writing, and arithmetic exams, aside from the standard aptitude tests given to all prospective students.
I passed the exams without any problems; my parents after all had encouraged me to take even my secular studies seriously. My friend failed miserably. Determined to persevere, he went home and sat down with his wife and asked her to tutor him in basic English and math skills. He took the exams a few weeks later and passed. But he didn’t last long. The course’s reading assignments were significant, and he was unable to manage it even with his wife’s tutoring. He dropped out mid-semester and went on to dabble in various entrepreneurial ventures, none of which were very successful. I went on to finish the course and eventually set out on a fairly successful career track.
Many a Chasidic young man could tell a similar tale, of finding himself one day with a brood of children without the means to support them, never having had the foresight to prepare for career or vocation, and never having had the proper guidance for the inevitability of such a situation. The community treats young men like babies thrown in a pool of water, forced to learn to swim on their own. Most don’t actually drown, but learn, with difficulty, how to sustain themselves somehow or another. But it often comes with immense hardships.
But of course, these are only the immediate and practical implications of education-neglect. There are, of course, more fundamental issue to be addressed: the bastardization of traditional values in the name of fierce conservatism, adherence to which results in generations of human talent gone to waste. Lives potentially enriched by knowledge and culture are stripped to the bone, left only with a wasteland of decaying ideas that are neither Jewish nor human, with ignorance, superstition, myth, conspiracy-theories, and group-think running rampant.
But I have to face the fact: I am no longer an integral part of that world; certainly not to those who still live within it. And part of withdrawing from a particular culture is that you lose the ability to influence from within. And there’s only so much receptiveness to voices coming from without—if there’s any at all.
But I still can’t help hoping that some within the community, specifically those who still cherish the core ideas of Judaism, the Chasidic movement, and the community lifestyle, will realize the shameful unseemliness of a community raised in deliberate ignorance, when doing so gains them little benefit, and when a little more reflectiveness can enrich not only personal lives, but raise the esteem for their lifestyle as a whole.
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Although secular education for girls is superior to that of boys, the attitude is often the same, especially among those who are against girls working in offices. Since mothers are usually not the ones who are expected to earn the livelihood for the family, a commonly used line when failing tests or ignoring homework is, “This will not help me make a better potato kugel.” I’m sure they sing a different tune when they’re needed to supplement the income to help support the houseful of kids they have.
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Maya — That’s certainly true. And I used to be appalled by the material my own daughters would bring home from school. Teachers’ “handouts” rife with grammatical errors (or even spelling errors) — each on of which, quite comically — and to my delight — my own daughter would scornfully point out, bright kid that she is with her dad’s weakness for pedantry.
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Much of it is simple backwardness clothed in a transparent veil of ideology to make it more palatable to the masses who need challah on their tables and money to pay the rent when Section 8 no longer will.
Like in a great many areas, e.g. special education, mental illness, the chassidishe community is very slow to catch on. The economic opportunities that were available threescore ago are no more. Today’s economy pretty much requires at least some semblance of education and skills to get ahead enough to be able to support the expensive chassidishe lifestyle. Meanwhile, rabbonim are doing all they can to push away the technological gadgets that have finagled their way in “for work purposes”, but everyone misses the forest for the trees. Beeing eble 2 txt yoily a msg wont parnassah mak. Technology is only one indicator of where making a living lies today.
Another thing is, that the rigorous boys’ schedules popular in chassidishe yeshivos are ridiculous. Even if the parents do take the secular education of their children seriously, how much patience can you expect of boys who have spent the first 8 hours of their day engaged in strict Torah learning? Can they reasonably be expected to sit still for another hour or two in the afternoon for limudei chol? And another hour at home, if the parents want to supplement the inadequate yeshiva curriculum?
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Skeleton, I should add also that the rigorous schedule and curriculum for boys’ religious studies completely ignores very specific talents some children might have in areas other than study a blatt gemureh with toisfos. There are many who would excel in the arts — music, painting, writing, etc. — whose talents are ignored (or even actively discouraged; imagine a child asking for piano lessons), which is a travesty if ever there was one. Not only are the talents of these right-brainers ignored, but they’re often commited to the ‘bottom ofthe barrel’ status due to left-brain weaknesses, effecting social stauts in general but shidduchim prospects in particular, not to mention a general feeling of not fitting in to the society’s rigid critera for ‘good social standing.’
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Today there is no Jewish Enlightenment. The serious ideological challenge to Orthodox Jewry that was once deemed a threat that required circling the wagons and declaring an unambiguous policy of with-us-or-against-us is long gone. But the remnants of that battle are still a mainstay of the Chasidic worldview, an unfortunate backward-gazing stance that holds an entire society captive to closed-mindedness and insularity.
The Jewish Enlightenment (with capital letters) is gone, but there’s still plenty evil stuff out there to warrant circling the wagons. They don’t hold onto the chadash-assur-min-hatorah attitude just because “minhag avoseinu b’yadeinu.”
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> Most importantly, adherence to archaic values
> that have long lost their raison d’être
Have they? I suspect the reason Hasidism is so successful in perpetuating itself is preciously this — the inability of its adherents to tell fact from fiction and myth from reality. The cultural meme responsible for the loathing of any ‘outside’ knowledge and the ridicule towards secular education is self-sustaining; like any successful genetic mutation, it survives and thrives in the community /because/ this is what helps perpetuate the community’s norms in the first place. A cultural community that loses this one value will quickly turn into something else entirely, something not recognizable as Hasidic at all.
Given the tools to know what is or isn’t so, how many Hasidim today would continue to toe the party line? Only a small minority, I would venture. And this is the crux of the issue. Ignorance and lack of education robs people of the ability and knowledge to judge fact from fiction, and this is crucial to the perpetuation of the culture. It can be painful to rub up against the astounding ignorance of some people mis-educated in the Hasidic system. And these are bright people, make no mistake about that.
How do you even begin to argue the most elementary facts with people who don’t know how to distinguish black magic from science? When trying recently to explain blackbody radiation to someone who asked about IR imaging (or so I thought), I was cut short by the question of how exactly the machines can tell a bad aura from a good one. I realized the question was not about an IR image of a person, but about the quackery of aura imaging, ghosts and souls. And indeed, how could they tell the difference between infrared and a ghost? It is all the same to someone lacking the knowledge.
And all this is by design; not intelligent design by some wizard operating behind the scenes, but ‘cultural survival of the culturally fittest’ design.
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There are many who would excel in the arts — music, painting, writing, etc. — whose talents are ignored (or even actively discouraged; imagine a child asking for piano lessons), which is a travesty if ever there was one
You didn’t even mention athletics…but I’m firmly convinced that the levels of chutzpah and some other discipline problems would drop at least several notches if structured athletic programs were introduced to yeshivos.
The ironic thing about the length and rigidity of the typical boy’s day is, that boys have no chiyuv in limud haTorah, so to what end or purpose is it? Chinuch? For a good many boys, all it does is turn them off to any future learning.
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great article. it actually feels like the introduction to a much longer study on this topic.
my kids are of the lucky ones. both my husband and i have advanced degrees, we’re both public school teachers and being bt’s, we never bought into “the whole package.” we pulled our kids out of a yeshiva after one completed first grade and the other completed upk, realizing that 1.we disagreed strongly with what was being taught; 2. we were disturbed that the school didn’t have to uphold any state standards or employ trained and certified teachers; 3. we found the quality of education to be severely lacking.
in thinking about it now, being totally otd and sending our kids (happily) to public school, it occurred to me that to send them to a school like the one they were attending through 12th grade is akin to educational neglect. these institutions cost families huge amounts of money and they churn out adults who can barely write a CV and a cover letter and who are not even qualified to get into a two year college (without the need for remedial courses).
these communities show just how fearful they are of anyone leaving when they make it impossible for survival outside of its confines. are they that afraid that people will leave if exposed to the outside world? and if that’s the case, as i suspect it is, i have to wonder just how sure they are of their own beliefs. if they are secure in their own beliefs, this shouldn’t be an issue.
apparently, knowledge really is power. (quick! squash it before there’s a revolution!)
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Aha! That explains it *all* about your, nebuch, farfallen from the yiddish veig! Not only did they teach you the ABCs, but a tumene ketzel נאך אויך! Feh!
A wonder you chose this path?!
Education and chassidus are absolutely mutually exclusive. There’s no way one can exist with the other, there’s no way you can educate without risking opening new horizons. If they expose you to reading, the likelihood of you to want to learn more, expand your choices and experiences, is significant. If they seek to preserve the unique lifestyle, education must be bare bone minimal. Even the learning the boys do is hardly learning in the educational sense of the term.
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> there’s still plenty evil stuff out there to warrant circling the wagons.
Just look around the blogoshpere. Are there any skeptics who got to where they are today while only reading material put out by the frum publishing companies?
The attitudes you describe aren’t resstricted to the Chassidishe communities. They’re found in the center-to-right wing Yeshivish ones, too.
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>It’s for this reason that I argue that the shunning of secular education has little basis in Orthodox tradition.
You are right that it is memetic. But it is a hugely important meme despite its young age.
The post war race to out do each other in piety and backwardness by Admorim and sects, resulted in schools that created young men and women who multiply in number exponentially.
The phenomenal rate of growth is a direct result of perfected isolation. A young man straight out of a Hasidic yeshiva, will have more children at 28, than will an educated well read Chosid.
The more exposure one has to secular news, the more inclined one becomes to flout the rules, to seek excuses to use birth control.
The meme survives for good reason.
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“There are many who would excel in the arts — music, painting, writing, etc. — whose talents are ignored”
And speaking from personal experience, if you do chose to acknowledge and cultivate your son’s talent, you’re totally vanguard.
Expect the typical reaction to be, “Hashem should help and you should see echte, *real* nachas from your son.
Or, “Does this not disturb him from learning”?
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Also, I feel compelled to add that our schools when we were kids were bog standard in every way.
Things are a lot better now, if still quite bad.
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–> Pen Tivokeish “The more exposure one has to secular news, the more inclined one becomes to flout the rules, to seek excuses to use birth control.”
I have just been analysing some data from the Israeli Social Survey 2008
For Charedim who are 30 or younger, there is a gap in the average birth rate between those who have access to a computer (either at home, work or elsewhere):
For those with access, the average is 2.32 but for don’t have access the average is 2.96
In addition, if you just look just at the statistics just for women the gap is even wider. With access, the average is 2.24 and without access the average is 3.12
Probably, because women can use birth-control without their husbands knowing.
This sample only includes those who have children, in order to prevent bias by those who just got married and didn’t have a chance to breed. The data may include those who have fewer children because of medical reasons.
The results are statistically significant.
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NM,
The results are interesting but not conclusive.
Correlation does not imply causation in this case.
Chances are that the more “open-minded” charaidim, those who use birth control, will surf the net as well.
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Hoezen, if they surf the net, they will be even more likely to have less children. That makes my argument stronger. The more you isolate, the more you multiply, ∴ isolation by means of illiteracy is important.
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Exectly NM,
I did not imply that the results indicate a causation. I merely pointed out that that there is correlation between the two. But, a third variable (i.e. open-mindedness) is probably the cause of both.
But you still have to find the causation of open-mindedness and it most likely comes from having access to material from the outside world
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How can we leave out the typical Chasidic ridiculing the need to learn English. ” Libishe Lefkowitz wasn’t able to sign his name in English” and so were many other Chasidic Billionaires.
The good news, more and more Chasidic parents now realize the importance of knowing the language of the land. If a child feels it’s important to his parants he will put more effort into it.
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In case it interests you Hoezen, I have a run a multiple regression to control for other socioeconomic factors (using a Poisson model) and the fertility differential still persists. I can’t say that I have been able account for all possible factors, but it does make it more likely that it has a causation effect.
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I hear you on your first point, but have to disagree on the second.
At the age of fifteen, the dean, a rabbi at my school asked me “Hoezen, what have you been reading? How did you find access to movies and to TV?
I told him the truth. I hadn’t seen any movies or read any magazines at that age. “Rabbi, my brain is a TV.”
“Open-mindedness” is a personality/cognitive trait. It’s something you are born with. Of course, as with every other human characteristic, environment/ nurture will play a role *as well*.
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Thanks, NM. Your research sounds fascinating.
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Very well said, Rebel. I can closely relate to it all, although I haven’t had the advantage of encouraging parents, but the complete opposite.
I disagree with other commenters about what the main objection to education is. Most our rabbis don’t fear enlightenment; they aren’t that smart. They honestly believe their sub-sect is ensconced in sheer truth, and if only the rest of the world could see the light they’ll all come running, grappling, begging to be converted en masse, as is indeed foretold will happen in Messiah’s day, but, alas, then they’ll have missed the boat, of course.
But granted they do realize the danger, there is nothing more innocuous than learning a trade, learning a second language, or how to navigate through a modern world. They do it in other Orthodox schools, why can’t we do the same? In fact, some prominent Orthodox leaders have been outspoken on the issue for years, encouraging a tiny bit attention be paid the secular studies. But nothing significant has changed.
I think the reason is that we simply don’t give a damn. We don’t value knowledge for the plain reason that we don’t. And this is true about Torah study as well. The highest ideal is l’shmo: studying for the sake of studying. Twenty years, from the day I learnt to read to the day I left kollel, I did not much else besides Torah study, and what have I got to show for it? Am I a rabbi? Am I a Talmudic scholar? Are two my classmates any of these things? Lo with an Aleph, as they used to say.
I was working with Chassidic people, from both genders, and with goyim, and I can tell that bad writing is not unique to Chassidim. There is a difference, however. Most goyim will appreciate a correction, if it’s not pointed out in a nerdy way, of course. But most Chassidim will just laugh at you. “What’s the point?” “Where is the money in it?”
Chassidic tales abound about how this or that Rebbe frowned on secular studies, but, l’meiseh, when circumstances necessitate it, few would forbid secular studies. It’s simply that we don’t realize that in our times circumstances necessitate it. Or we do realize, but it’s more convenient to simply let the ball roll its course.
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Thank,
Not sure if you are being sarcastic.
I think your point is very valid, but if you are saying that open-mindedness is a genetic trait, then we should expect that if one family member has internet access and fewer children because of his open-mindedness, then his siblings would probably also be the same. So, it could be interested in studying.
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NM,
“Not sure if you are being sarcastic”.
Of course not.
Is my online rep that bad so soon?
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Most our rabbis don’t fear enlightenment; they aren’t that smart. They honestly believe their sub-sect is ensconced in sheer truth
excellent point
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As for the research,
How can you really measure that?
For starters, children have 2 parents, and can take after one, or the other, or none.
And what’s the variable being measured?
Open-mindedness, guts, rebelliousness?
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>Most our rabbis don’t fear enlightenment; they aren’t that smart.
Rabbis are unimportant, stigma and respect are. If you can out-holy your neighbour you are onto something.
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Nooch alle maases, the main reason secular studies are so neglected is the lack of money. The chedoorim can barely hire and pay qualified melamdim who get paid bupkes to begin with, let alone hire and pay teachers who can do as much as control a classroom.
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There is money for what’s important. If it would have been a priority we would have found the funds for it. Launched a schnor campaign, secured a grant, schemed up some draidel, or whatever else we are good at.
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“If it would have been a priority we would have found the funds for it. Launched a schnor campaign, secured a grant, schemed up some draidel, or whatever else we are good at”.
Absolutely. Many of the girl school receive government funding for Title 1 and other At-Risk or academic enrichment programs. Few Yeshivas do.
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The fundamental disagreement you seem to be having with the Chasidic community is that, on the perils of reading and knowledge vis-a-vis religion, you’d quite naturally say, let the chips fall where they may. But the devoted chasid would take no chances; and if reading has got to give, the Chasid would shrug, then, let those chips fall where they may. So it’s a question of what premium one is ready to pay for what.
And I agree with Misyavni that “[m]ost our rabbis don’t fear enlightenment; they aren’t that smart,” save Menoshe Philiph in Di Tzeitung, who recently editorialized that the real danger of the internet lies not in the מקומות המטונפים but in the, what he dysphemisticly and erroneously called, עבודה זרות that yingeliet are studding and are falling for.
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E, BD, and Pen, your observations about the continued function of these cultural memes are valid, and I don’t entirely disagree. But there’s a fundamental problem here. Subjective values are generally tied to underlying premises (which may, in turn, be tied to more underlying premises). When trying to change minds on such matters there are only three realistic options: the underlying premise must be destroyed; the value must be shown not to follow from the premise; or it must be shown that the value, even if somewhat in line with the premise, has a fallout that makes its attainment, even when successful, a pyrrhic victory.
The last one is more clear-cut in this case, and I did focus on it: the practical fallout of an ignorant and uneducated populace.
But the first two options address the issue more fundamentally, which is the ideal approach when possible. But in doing so, we would need to define the premise before attempting to dismantle it. My contention is that we’re dealing with premises that are not doctrinal or theological (such that would require a fundamental shift in the believer’s mind). They are cultural fossils. Granted, they might still serve some particular function. But that function is more likely to be the preservation of cultural values that are themselves relics of a different milieu. (Pen argues the birth rate; BD mentions the “community’s norms. Both mere cultural characteristics, but hardly central to what would be considered fundamental doctrine or dogma.)
It can indeed be argued that secular education would destroy Chasidic culture as we know it. Well, of course; how can it not? One of the very characteristics of Chasidic culture is its insularity and its self-imposed separation from the rest of society. But the reason Chasidim embraced the Chasam Sofer’s fierce opposition to anything smacking of modernity was the perceived existential threat to Orthodox Judaism as a whole, not just the Chasidic or shtetl-like lifestytle.
I don’t believe that if Chasidish boys were given the same secular education as that of Chasidish girls then Orthodox Jewry would fall apart. Yes, there might be less superstition (although I don’t see women being less superstitious than men); yes, they might adjust their birthrates; yes, they might actually realize that scientific endeavors have value to humanity, they might embrace the arts, become doctors and professors. But so what? What will be lost? The shtreimel and bekishe? The ‘veisse zukken’? Perhaps. But will Chasidim suddenly stop keeping shabbos or kashrus en masse? I don’t believe so.
Of course the Chasid is afraid that his Chasidish lifestyle will fall apart. But why does he value that lifestyle to begin with? Save for a few idiots, few actually believe that early Judaism had any resemblance to the Chasidic lifestyle of today. And few believe they were all the worse for it. My argument is that it’s that very lifestyle that the Chasid considers so important to preserve that is, at the heart of it, a mere sentimental attachment and hardly a matter of deep principle.
Finally, if all this isn’t convincing (and indeed, I don’t expect it to be to a dyed in the wool Chasid), there’s the argument of its practical implications and long-term viability. Some have argued that economic necessity will force the Chasidic world to adapt. Perhaps in some ways it will. But if it does, it will be in half-measures and band-aids that merely cover up symptoms and allow them to reappear in different shapes and forms for the next generation.
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A chasidishe professor?
That s an oxymoron if there ever was one.
I think the mistake that you are making is trying to argue with logic when Chasidishkiet today is anti-logic. The spirit of the law supersedes the letter of the law. Al titoish toras iemecho indeed has little to do with doctrine or theology.
To many a chasidish Jew the MO Jew is (almost) as bad as the goy.
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HT — You’re only reinforcing my point. My mistake is not that I’m arguing with logic. My mistake is arguing, period. One can say that it’s rather pointless. But I’ve never been one to shy away from making points just because I have no receptive audience.
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Ha! You’re right. This blog is your baby. Who am I to interject or interfere with the conversations you’re having.
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Somebody mentioned that the Heimishe schools send home papers with bad English grammar. What is ironic is that even the Yiddish papers and booklets or full of grammatical errors! Chasidim simply lack appreciation for any intellectual endeavor, including grammar. This makes them probably one of the only groups in the world that does not know how to speak or write correctly any language.
BTW, I loved this gem:
“Lives potentially enriched by knowledge and culture are stripped to the bone, left only with a wasteland of decaying ideas that are neither Jewish nor human, with ignorance, superstition, myth, conspiracy-theories, and group-think running rampant.”
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“Most our rabbis don’t fear enlightenment; they aren’t that smart. They honestly believe their sub-sect is ensconced in sheer truth”
I don’t think that’s true. I heard the following direct quote from a menahel in a large chassidishe chaider in Mondey “We Can’t Compete with Hollywood” as a reason for keeping the boys sheltered.
As I wrote at the time (http://bit.ly/atAaOi), if the Torah is the truth it should be able to compete with Hollywood…
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Hoezen: “The spirit of the law supersedes the letter of the law.”
With Judaism, the letter of the law results in many more illogicalities and absurdities than does its spirit. Each and every chumrah is case in point.
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I should have written:
Yiddish papers and booklets *are* full
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HT — Pen’s right. If it were the spirit of the law that mattered we’d have a society that recognized the laws for their original intent, instead of being obsessed with the minutia of fulfilling them.
What you’re talking about is not law at all — letter or spirit — but fossilized cultural values.
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If we were going by the spirit, Deuteronomy intended to turn the Israelites into a people more enlightened, more humane, and more reasoning than the rest of humanity. We would’ve been a people who consults not soothsayers, who disowns talking fish, and who is a light to the nations. Ironic.
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Misyavni: Most our rabbis don’t fear enlightenment; they aren’t that smart. They honestly believe their sub-sect is ensconced in sheer truth. I think the reason is that we simply don’t give a damn.
I think your assertion oversimplifies the term enlightenment. True, rabbis don’t fear a philosophical or religious enlightenment. But they do fear a worldly enlightenment; the discovery of the choices and freedom that the secular society so notoriously tout. When one studies secular subjects one can be enlightened by literature, the arts, science about many things like choice and diversity and emotional significance. What can ensue from such exposure is knowledge of other cultures, probably some tolerance to these cultures, and perhaps some experimenting of these cultures and fondling and…sinning! Just a sliver of a exposure to different lifestyles can leave the musser-yelling rabbi alone with his shereim of rolls on rolls of gefilta fish.
It’s a lot more than not giving a damn. It’s a conscious, battled preservation of a lifestyle that cannot exist under Western influences. It’s the need to own a distinct niche, because in the Western niche the clumsy chassidic lifestyle can’t compete for survival – it is far from “fit” enough (to speak in Darwinian terms). In fact, it is doomed to extinction. It’s all the sheltering from Western influences -not speaking the languages, not learning skills -that preserves the species. Exposure to anything Western is threatening. And yes, they all give a damn, and for good reason.
Think about the amount of effort that goes into sheltering Satmar Israelies from speaking the national language. Do the Rabbis seem lazy to you there? Did the Satmar Rabbi not put up the ultimate crussade against Hebrew?
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Certainly, our leaders past have gone to great lengths to fortify us in a sheltered ghetto, and our present leaders will do all they can to keep the Berlin wall from coming crumbling down. What I’m arguing is that we, the commons, don’t value knowledge, and we wouldn’t initiate even innocuous secular educational or vocational programs.
Activists tried to do something here and there, but it lacked the enthusiasm and support from the community.
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People are skeptical of knowledge because practical knowledge and “bad” knowledge are intertwined. Yes, they drag a leg, schlep and postpone. They’re passive aggressive, not lazy.
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” Think about the amount of effort that goes into sheltering Satmar Israelies from speaking the national language. Do the Rabbis seem lazy to you there? Did the Satmar Rabbi not put up the ultimate crusade against Hebrew?”
What are you suggesting Shpiz? The Satmar rov shunned the Hebrew language primarily because he wanted to shelter his chasidim from everything secular?
To the Satmar Rebbe, the right winged fanatic tzitzis flying sidur kissing settler was just as much a threat.
Rov Kok for example, wasn’t exactly the embodiment of secular enlightenment.
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I could talk about this topic for hours. Well, just read through my archives, and you’ll get a bit of it.
Great analysis.
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From my observing in the community I would say the Rabbis in general don’t fear enlightenment. To them there’s only one way of thinking in existence, enlightened or non believers are all half crazies or shiksa lovers to them definitely not intellectual honesty involved. English education is viewed with disdain simply because it’s unholy and a waste of time. God gives parnossa and they don’t see secular education as something worthwhile.
And I would Challenge those claiming that eliminating the language barrier would leads to open mindedness, then why in Israel where everyone knows Hebrew (including satmars and NK), there’s no enlightenment on the way there as far as the eye can see. Same goes to Lubavitsh English speakers here or in US or English speaking lakewooders.
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Velvel, Stamars in Israel don’t speak much Hebrew, not the ones I know anyhow, not any better than the Satmars in America speak English.
Hoezen (hey, hey!) True, but when did the Satmars differentiate between a tstitus flying -say- Litvak and a secular maskil? When I was a kid I called them all universally “goyim”.
The Satmar rabbi was the epitome of ethnocentricism, and he rebelled against anything that wasn’t his. He was disdainful of things just because they weren’t exclusively Satmar, which probably included the revived Holy Language.
Truth is I’m not very versed on the Satmar and Hebrew, beyond of course the given biblical reason which is pure hogwash. Perhaps there were other underlying motivations – beyond my assumption as stated before of sheltering and perserving- that motivated his crusade. If there are other analytic explanations to his fiery war on Hebrew, please be so sinful and enlighten me.
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The yiddish terminology may further elude to the source of the problem.
Yiddish = Mamma Lushen
English = Goyisheh Shprach
Hebrew = Tumeneh Shprach
See the negative terms?
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Velvel — I think you make a good point about the yeshivish community retaining their closed-mindedness despite their relative acceptance of secular education. Of course, I’d like to do away with closed-mindedness altogether. Can that co-exist with the fundamentals of Chasidism? Personally I think it can — if you go back to basics, that is, and strip away the cultural baggage that has come to characterize Chasidim.
Shpitzle — You’re confusing Satmar reactinary politics with the general attitude of Chasidim towards modernity. Satmar is more parochial, but only in small measures, compared to say, Vizhnitz, Klauzenberg, Belz, or Skver. And their anti-Zionism is a mere extension of an overall Chasam-Sofer-esque worldview. While some people in Satmar might look with disdain at the Yeshivish community for their lukewarm attitude towards secular studies, it’s a far cry from calling them goyim. They’ll happily be ‘metzaref’ them to minyan, give them aliyos in their shuls, and even let them daven before the ‘umed’.
But the crux of the matter still remains: What will the Chasidish community really lose if they gave up their fierce embrace of ignorance, parochialism, and ethnocentrism? Nothing of particular importance. They’ll still remain “Torah-true” Jews.
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I used the Satmar as an example of the direction and purpose of the attitude towards education as something intentionally minimal. Whilst in Chassidome elsewhere both English and Hebrew are regularly spoken, the grammar and language is hardly taught beyond basic conversational skills – as you’re well aware.
In any event, it’d be a impossible to declare the guaranteed survival of chassidus after “ignorance, parochialism, and ethnocentrism”. On which grounds does thee a prophesy as such make?
Isn’t the more logical consequence of “knowledge, open mindedness and tolerance” assimilation?
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“On which grounds does thee a prophesy as such make?”
Hardly a pretense to prophesizing. All we can do is speculate. For which I give myself plenty allowance, for better or worse.
“Isn’t the more logical consequence of “knowledge, open mindedness and tolerance” assimilation?”
I don’t personally think so. And you actually hit the nail on its head by referring to assimilation. Those who argue that the shtreimel and bekishe will be lost are probably right. But the point is, the tefilin beitel will remain.
All one can do is try to find analogous situations, to test a given speculative scenario. I would argue that the relative success of Modern Orthodoxy (especially its continued shift toward the right), shows that the fundamentals of Judaism are not at great risk due to secular education. Granted, MO is losing steam. But it’s not to science and knowledge; it’s to pop-culture and the MTV world. And I contend that secular education can be kept separate from pop-culture. I don’t propose that in every ‘cheider’, along with a certified English teacher, they show the latest blockbuster movie.
Other examples are the many Christian communities, whose members remain firmly committed to their religious ideals despite having all access to secular education. I think people underestimate the resilience of religious faith. At its core, it is able to sustain significant challenges. And secular education would be only a very unintimidating one, at that.
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>>Isn’t the more logical consequence of “knowledge, open mindedness and tolerance” assimilation?<<
Here’s the thing. I have every intention of ensuring that my kids receive a solid education, I do my best to teach tolerance and acceptance, and them being open-minded is something I can only pray for. But despite all that, I honestly don’t see how they’re yiddishkeit might suffer.
Personally, I’ve had this fascinating experience with knowledge, open mindedness and tolerance – they made me a better person. Oh, and a better Jew.
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HR- Has the Novominsker Rebbe’s engagement with secular studies & technoculture really given him the ability to relax his embrace of ignorance, parochialism, and especially ethnocentrism enough to combat the influence of Shpitzle’s Tumeneh, (Go)yi[di]she, Mamma Lushen Shprach ?
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Tzippy – “They made you a better JEW “. Pray tell us how your engagement with bible criticism, science, etc. has made you & will make your kids – if they really grow up – a better Jew. And does your tolerance also embrace your very own (Chas Ve….) gay children ? Let’s get down to the Real issues , please ! HR & Shpitzle re: assimilation & MTV . While all commjunities r loosing much to MTV, education is no guarantee to knowledge, open mindedness & tolerance. Christian, Muslim & some elements of the MO world attest to that.Conversely, a survey conducted in SAR – a prominent bastion of MO co-ed education that served as NOA’s alma matter – whose results r prominently posted on it’s walls in an effort to combat the numbers that don’t lie – states that 50% of respondents believe that a significant percent of the student body doubt the very existence of GOD !!! While Judaism has proven to be amazingly resilient throughout the ages & is bracing to take on modern challenges, that does not have much to say for the survival of the version were “kebeged idim kol tzidkosainu” [ our entire saintliness is based on different styles and worn out versions of THE cloth.]
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Pray tell us how your engagement with bible criticism, science, etc. has made you & will make your kids – if they really grow up – a better Jew.
For one, the study of history, Jewish and non-Jewish, would probably go a long way towards improving anybody. It’s a sorely neglected subject.
And does your tolerance also embrace your very own (Chas Ve….) gay children ?
Ignorant comment of the month. Y’know, your children can be (Chas ve…) gay even if they’re frum. Disowning a gay child will not make him or her any less gay; only more unhappy about it. Which perhaps is your point exactly – why embrace openness, tolerance, and happiness while trying to improve yourself when you can be closeminded and ignorant and make others unhappy in the bargain?
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Shpizel (yeh, yeh, I dropped the surname when I started using birth control);)
” If there are other analytic explanations to his fiery war on Hebrew, please be so sinful and enlighten me.”
What? You’re asking for a personal , Nochosh? Now that’s what I call high maintenance!
The satmara rebbe hated the baank kveching litvak I believe, mostly because the litvak didn’t hate the tzioni enough.
It all comes back to the same source, and fear of enlightenments got little to do with it.
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Why did he hate Zionism? Have we come full circle? Is it not because of its secular outlook, “we are just another nation, just anther land, just another language”?
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Pen,
Can’t exactly call myself an expert on the Divrie Yoil, but the issue is more complex than that. Was the Satmare rebbe so vehemently anti Yidishisten or Bundisten
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It is more complex than that, to the extent that reducing the historical concept of the people & the land to be merely nationalistic in character, is blasphemous.
There is of course also a quasi halachic element to his ideology too.
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You can also think about it in terms of a power motive. The best way to unite people and rule over them is to define a common enemy and rally the mob against them. So, regardless of the leader’s fault, the enemy is always worse. This has happened throughout history, Hitler against the Jews, Ahmadinijad against the West and the Satmerer Rebbe against Zionists.
He gained such huge power that no other hasidic rebbe has ever manage to accomplish.
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Neo-Maskil, I agree. Alas, most Hasidim choose not to see the benefits rebbes derive from their extreme positions–personal benefits and benefits for their rebbishe families. (Perhaps “choose not to see” is the wrong formulation given the limitations of Hasidic education.)
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Great post.
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Skeleton – thanks for giving my words ur careful attention ! I was trying to probe the extent of MO tolerance & the fruits of charedi/chasidic sophistication. Just try substituting the words ‘when you remain ‘ for the words ‘when you can be ‘and you might be ignorant no more. As far as the study of history goes, ALL history has it’s author’s bias – it’s more interpretation than mere facts – and calls for critical reading if you don’t want to end up exchanging one bias for another ! But you are right – you have to start somewhere – so let us all give credit to that brave soul called TZIPPY !
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Fascinating article.
Although, there shouldn’t be an apostrophe in “The ABCs of ignorance”
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“When the S is added to a word simply to make it a plural, no apostrophe is used (except in expressions where letters or numerals are treated like words, like “mind your P’s and Q’s” and “learn your ABC’s”)”
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/apostrophes1.html
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You only add an apostrophe when it is a single Capital letter, like “the student only receives A’s in exams”
But when writing more that one capital letter, like ABC, UFO or VIP you do not add an apostrophe
http://associatedcontent.com/article/82035/punctuation_problems_how_to_avoid_apostrophe.html
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Simen, I had linked you to Paul Brians’ rule, which states otherwise. Paul is an Emeritus Professor of English Washington State University and author of Common Errors in English Usage, which I guess renders it a מחלוקת הפוסקים and thus a matter of style that cannot be criticized as long as it’s applied consistently, or as they say, עביד כמר עביד.
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“my mother started curling my little payess around her finger and brushing it with a bit of sugar-water”
HR, just out of curiosity, why sugar water?
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Goldy — Mishpacha family section with its various homemaking tips wasn’t around then. But whatever its equivalent at that time probably gave her that tip for helping payess retain their curl, without the stiffness of dippity-doo. Have no idea if it actually works. Thinking back, I find the idea a bit… yucky.
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Sugar water is better than ‘fish yoich’. My friends mother used that on his peyos!
Sugar water is a shabbosdiger alternative to gel.
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Why are the women allowed to learn English more fully?
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Sara N – would U risk educating charedi women & then having them ask questions about Judaism instead ?
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Mendy–
But the author says, “Secular education for girls is, for various reasons, far superior to that of boys; a subject for another discussion.”
It indicates that they ARE more educated in secular matters, and I’m wondering why. I certainly notice that some of them keep up with fashion in clothing (as long as it is tznius, of course). In contrast, the men seem totally insular.
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Sara N – that question is for HR to get into. I was just trying to open up the discussion to the “risks” of opening up the world of Judaic studies to charedi women.
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