Walking the Line
[Book Review]
Unchosen: The Secret Lives of Hasidic Rebels
By Hella Winston
Beacon Press, 216 pages
In Unchosen: The Hidden Lives of Hasidic Rebels, Hella Winston chronicles the lives of Yossi, Dini, Yitzchak, Malkie and others as they diverge from the prescribed path of Chasidic Jewish culture and religion.
Let’s start by judging this book by its cover, which cleverly illustrates the title. (I have a degree in design, so I’m allowed to do that.) The photo shows a Chasidic man, complete with shtreimel and bekishe, walking across the Brooklyn Bridge towards Manhattan. Thus, it highlights the ambivalence that many Chasidic rebels feel about the lifestyle they’ve been raised in, and the secular society they’re venturing into. The man is treading on the yellow line that divides the pedestrian lane from the cyclists’ lane—a literal illustration of “walking the line” between his religious home borough and Manhattan as a symbol of a broader secular world. (Though perhaps he is just trying to avoid being hit by those pesky hipster bike-riders.) I also suspect that the choice of blue ink for the title and the back cover of the dust jacket serves to visually relate this book to Judaism. (For us goyim, blue Chanukah wrapping paper in stores is a counterpoint to the red-and-gold foil at Christmas, and the only thing we recognize as Jewish. Except for that funny candelabra y’all use.)
The book is structured in an alternating-chapter format, with the author arranging her narratives around the character Yossi, who merits the focus of every other chapter. Between chapters about Yossi, Winston visits the lives of other rebels. The readers meet Dini, who vents her frustration about the restrictions on women in Chasidism; Chaim, who hosts open-minded gatherings; Malkie, the founder of Footsteps, an organization that supports those seeking to leave the community; and several other Chasidic rebels. Each character is a device used to explore one area of Chasidic culture or beliefs, and the reasons one might have for rejecting them. Because of this structure, the book often feels like a prolonged introduction; I wanted Winston to move past the explanations and into more of the fascinating narratives of the subjects’ lives.
I have no vested interest in maintaining a good image of Chasidim; I am a red-haired goy from the South who grew up in a religiously-ambiguous household. That being said, I don’t understand the emphasis in this book on the character Yossi. With his substance abuse problems and obvious mental illness, he seems like he’d be an outlier in any group—not just a selection of rebels. Additionally, Leah, the divorcée and young mother, is briefly addicted to drugs. Yossi’s prominent position (and Leah’s ancillary one) makes the other characters lose credibility. If he is put forward as representative of the dissenters, either the author’s discretion is lax or Chasidism can really drive one towards insanity.
Despite its shortcomings, I genuinely enjoyed Hella Winston’s writing. She integrates Yiddish terms into her explanations without them seeming clunky or distracting, and the treatment of each character is respectful and fair. The case studies inspire in the reader a sense of personal connection to each character. I’d love to see Winston write Unchosen Again (or Re-Unchosen?) as a sequel so that we can find out how Yossi is managing in life, or where Malkie plans to take Footsteps in the future. (In the case of Yossi, though, I fear the worst.)
The people for whom Unchosen would be an interesting read are voyeuristic goyim like myself who are fascinated with those whose lives are vastly different from ours, or the rebels among us who see a bit of themselves in every anecdote. In the case of the goyim, all the explanations of religion and ritual will be necessary and helpful. In the latter case, however, I imagine the reader will skim over it to get to the juicy parts, like someone thumbing through a romance novel for the sex scenes. That being said, there are many groups to whom this book wouldn’t appeal—secular Jews who would find the explanations tedious, goyim with no interest in Judaism, or Chasidim with a distaste for dissent. If you fit one of these categories, you’re at the wrong website anyway.
Unchosen is nonfiction, and is available in both hardcover and paperback from Beacon Press for $23.95. (Or, for the thrifty Jews among us, you can buy a cheap used version from Amazon like I did.) I award it four Stars of David, out of five.
Printable Version
HT, I didn’t see many Chasidic women in the room, and I also didn’t see any go over to have their book signed. So it wasn’t presumptuousness on my part when I broached the subject with her in one of our conversations.
And she confirmed that she had meant me, and ‘stood corrected’.
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Hedyot,
This womans “inside knowledge” of Chassidim comes from OTD’s, each with their own personal axe to grind against the society they come from. Surely her axe is going to be ground just like theirs. I don’t think one needs to be a rocket scientist to work that one out!
HR:
It’s nothing to do with the image thing.
Sure, one can criticize Chassdim for so very much.
But you can also criticize just about each and every group under the planet for the things they have wrong with their society. Utopia just doesn’t exist in reality.
It’s oh so very easy spend one’s life bashing others. But it’s a bottomless pit of frustration and annoyance.
It’s so very much harder to see the good in others. But boy, does it make you happy!
The trick of life is to focus on the good, to smile and change that which we can and to ignore the things we can do nothing about.
That’s why I am disappointed to read blogs like this one. They are pointless rants.
Each and every one of us are amazing people! Let’s keep smiling!
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> This womans “inside knowledge” of Chassidim comes from OTD’s…
Actually, that’s not entirely true. She also speaks to people who are still frum, as people here have already pointed out.
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> Sometimes, even in Williamsburg, she dared to wear high-heeled shoes and boots.
Tzippi, I really don’t see how this proves anything. She’s describing the perspective of her character. For her, this may well have been a very daring thing to do.
> …most of them actually learn to speak and read better in English, and know more math, than the men.
What is inaccurate or objectionable about this?
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Frummer — That’s a nice sentiment.
But we don’t point out the ills in Chasidic society more than, say, the New York Times does about the world at large. Any newspaper you open will have a degree of criticism of society; I don’t think that’s reason not to read newspapers. And it’s unfair to say we focus on the ills of Chasidic society, because that’s certainly not our mission. We focus on whatever is of interest to our “Chasidim on the Fringe” readership. It may include amusing anecdotes, poignant personal narratives, critiquing both the frum or non-frum worlds, and more. It’s unfortunate that you see this site as filled with mere “pointless rants.” But despite it all, I notice you still come back for more. 
More to the point, Hella isn’t necessarily pointing out society’s ills in the book. She’s telling the stories of those who’ve decided to break away from a society from which it is notoriously difficult to do so; some of the stories might be tragic and troubling (Yossi); others are inspiring and life-affirming (Yehoshua Fine and Malkie Schwartz). But all the stories highlight tormenting personal choices that individuals have made in the interest of bettering their lives. That is an endeavor that seems “negative” only to those who see it so subjectively. But Hella, in her book, does not engage in bashing (or even anything more than mildly criticizing) the Chasidic community. To vilify her for her choice to tell the story of the disenfranchised is curious indeed.
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Oh, and Frummer, in case you think we’re low on “positive” posts, we hereby extend a very eager invitation for you to write one. Seriously. We do want posts written from all perspectives.
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And it’s unfair to say we focus on the ills of Chasidic society, because that’s certainly not our mission.
I disagree. It may not be your mission, but Frummer’s assessment pretty much sums up the posts on this site. An establishment’s mission and its reality are not always synonymous. (Of course, reality evolves. Perhaps now that you’ve clarified your mission, more objective essays will come your way.)
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Bethany, you too are invited.
But then, I think you already have a standing invitation.
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Also, Bethany, while there may be some merit to what you say, I do think it’s the comments section more than the posts themselves. This site is as much a platform for discussion as it is for posting pieces by “authors.” And as such, it’s a bit of a free-for-all. Can’t really be helped.
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Sometimes, even in Williamsburg, she dared to wear high-heeled shoes and boots.
Tzippi, I really don’t see how this proves anything. She’s describing the perspective of her character. For her, this may well have been a very daring thing to do.
She writes about how her character “dared” to wear the very things many Williamsburg women wear daily. And she goes on to say that others looked at her disdainfully, and some were even vocal in their opposition.
Indeed this is but one woman’s perspective. Could this have happened to her? Of course. Anything could happen anywhere, particularly since it is not so much of an occurrence as a perception. Does it happen often? And more than that – is it indicative of a suppressed community? No, and not at all!
Of course we can say that Hella was just telling some peoples’ stories. That would be fine. But not only do these anecdotes reflect on the entire community – but that is what Ms. Winston’ intended it to! She claims to have done a sociological study, and only told it in narrative form to make it a more pleasant and easier read. But overall, these little anecdotes are supposed to give the big picture. They are actually supposed to reflect on us all.
Which makes the fact that it is inaccurate and offensive that much more of an issue.
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…most of them actually learn to speak and read better in English, and know more math, than the men.
What is inaccurate or objectionable about this?
Technically, nothing. In these parts women do indeed get a better secular education than their male counterparts. But that isn’t what she is saying.
While being ever so subtle, she still manages to be most condescending. If her writing deserves to be complimented, it is for this: Her adeptness at being able to finesse the paragraph so that the sugar coated insult is met with discomfiture, yet followed with a polite ‘Thanks’. After all, women of the Hasidic world be flattered! Hella Winston just told the world that even in this little hick town most! of these women actually! learn to speak and read better! in English than the men.
Forget about writing or even being fluent in this very odd language, but get this! Most actually are better than the men. That’s so grand! Let’s smile like buffoons, puff out our chests and be all thrilled with the great compliment she tossed our way.
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What’s with the ‘awaiting moderation’ deal? I’ve gotten it twice – and I can’t fathom what it is that might be construed as offensive.
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Tzipi,
I believe the computer bot detects and flags comments it detects as possible spam. What you did to offend its sensibilities only you know.
As far as your argument, I often wonder if you’re trying hard to come across as a nitpicking, ignorant, easily-offended representative of the community you claim to love. You’re on the verge of succeeding – had I not known you to be better than that. You made an argument that didn’t make sense, and then used a lot of “bold” fonts to reiterate the sublime message YOU found in it. You may want to look into the Bible Codes to find your calling.
If I sound harsh, Tzipi, please forgive me. It’s an expression of disappointment in your ability to read a sentence for what it’s worth.
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WTF?
This is a great site. Sometimes positive, sometimes negative, but always fascinating. The chutzpa from Frummer and Bethany is alarming: not only do they hang out on this blog, they’re INVITED to post, and they’re treated with respect, yet they bitch and moan that it’s not optimistic enough towards their cult. How many frum webites can they name that are “optimistic” from an OTD point of view and are quick to see the “good” in people from other religions and all? None. Each website caters to their niche audience, and there’s no reason they should have to please everybody. If the frummers aren’t tzufreeden with YWN, maybe it’s time to ask themselves why.
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Tzipi, I was gearing for a good fight. Ayekoo?
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I wanted to hold back for awhile to see how the comments would play out.
It seems like many detractors are uncomfortable with the possibly-negative portrayal of Chasidim through this book. Honestly, I can say from a goyishe position that a good number of goyim would be likely to say, “Why would anyone stay in that environment? No wonder they wanted to leave.” (They might venture to use the word “cult” in reference to Chasidism.) They’d probably think that the questioning ones were the sane few.
All the characters, in my opinion, were presented as noble, intelligent individuals. The only character I think looked bad was Yossi, but I can’t imagine a reader with a lick of sense thinking his problems were CAUSED by his identity crisis. (Though, certainly they weren’t helped by it.) Yossi would have looked bad no matter what; that wasn’t a matter of selective reporting. I was actually impressed with Winston’s sensitivity; she made me want to convene a group of these OTD types for a dinner party so I could chat with them.
Maybe I’ll hand off the book to my mom (back in ‘Bama) and see what she thinks about the portrayal of the characters. For now, I think some of the commentors are just too sensitive. Would there be any book exclusively about OTDs that they’d be okay with? I doubt it.
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Shtreimel, I was on my way Upstate and composed what I’d like to think was the perfect response. Unfortunately my Instinct isn’t all it is cooked up to be, and the comment never posted. Frustrating as hell, but I’ll try again. I’m not really up for a ‘good fight’, mostly cuz of the hour – but also because I’m not in the mood. But here goes anyway…
Your claim was that I was nitpicking – and I don’t think so.
It was a random paragraph, on a random page and it effortlessly offended me, much in the same way that random verses from certain poets so easily make my heart stop, and just about any chapter in any of Potok’s books will break my heart.
It is a talent no doubt. And Hella’s got it. To pretend to so factually tell a story, and yet with such subtlety and grace manage to just barely camouflage the blatant condescension. I should commend her for it, if wouldn’t bother as much. I’m not alone in noticing it. Obviously Sara Nordmann did too, and said as much. The Chasidim come across as the insane ones, as members of a cult, and from where anyone who has an iota of sense will flee from.
Because I know of many of things she saw and people she met – and I’ve seen what she has ignored and what she has chosen to incorporate in her story – in the way she spun it, I’ll repeat my initial assessment: It’s a hateful piece of work.
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Tzippi, like you did with Unchosen, I’ll pick a random comment of yours on which to comment on.
>She writes about how her character “dared” to wear the very things many Williamsburg women wear daily. And she goes on to say that others looked at her disdainfully, and some were even vocal in their opposition.
I can identify easily with the subject and I’m just using a fictitious example about a stupid hat. The fact that some in my community would go to shul without a hat on Shabbos, doesn’t mean that I could get away with it without it being commented upon and being subject to scrutiny. Maybe it’s even just my imagination that I’d get flack, but the fact that I’ve been conditioned to THINK that everyone’s watching my every move is the reality of living in the ghettos we do.
If these are your random examples of your objections to Hella’s works, you’ve got a lot of explaining to do about your real onjections to the book.
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Am I the only one surprised that Ms. Winston herself is not commenting?
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but the fact that I’ve been conditioned to THINK that everyone’s watching my every move is the reality of living in the ghettos we do.
Uhhh, no. Actually, the fact that you’ve been conditioned to think that everyone’s watching your every move – is a reality created by the home you grew up in.
Your perception of self, and your obsession with outsiders’ perceptions of you – entirely depend on the way you were raised. Parents can ingrain this self-consciousness in kids at a very early age. Similarly, parents can teach kids early on not to care.
Besides which – for those who are concerned with what others think – it does not matter where the community may be, or what they may hold dear. Every community has its standards, and deviating might be uncomfortable for those that were raised to believe that others actually care.
Social pressure is a reality in every community, regardless of religion, race, or even sexual orientation.
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Actually, the fact that you’ve been conditioned to think that everyone’s watching your every move – is a reality created by the home you grew up in.
Not really. Hasidic communities are very much like Foucault’s Panopticon. (Sorry, I don’t mean to sound pretentious by using Foucaltian language, but this is the most apt description.) Of course you can get away with plenty if you’re clever enough, but generally, people are watched. That’s not always a bad thing, of course. In a vast lonely world, it’s sometimes nice to feel people care whether you live or die.
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Bethany, I heartily disagree. To beleive that your behavior needs to be on guard, in order to please those that watch, you’d need to have been told at one point that those who watch care about your behavior. Or even more, someone at some point needs to have convinced you that there is someone watching in the first place.
So much for Foucault’s Panopticon.
Regarding communities who care whether you live or die – every ‘community’ is like that. I repeat: be they religious, blue-bloods, or the very ‘liberal’ environmentally conscious, or even a solidly gay community. Close knit communities have standards and mores. Violating them might get idle tongues wagging. And only if one cares about what idle tongues do, only then does it become a concern.
The question in this particular argument was whether with her high-heels, short ‘flouncy’ skirt, and sox, she even came close to violating any social standards. I don’t think she was. Which makes it unlikely that she was sufficient fodder for gossipers in the first place.
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True, high heels and flouncy skirt don’t violate social standards, but my comment was addressed to a different statement you made. The Hasidic community is, indeed, a Panopticon, regardless of which home you grew up in.
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Bethany, you can either make the argument that ‘every’ community is a panopticon. Or you can argue that only those who’ve conditioned their minds so, end up living in a panopticon.
There is nothing special about the Hasidic community in that regard.
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“The question in this particular argument was whether with her high-heels, short ‘flouncy’ skirt, and sox, she even came close to violating any social standards. I don’t think she was. ”
She very well might have been. We don’t know the type of family this particular woman comes from. But suppose she wears a shpizel, picture her walking down the street in sexy shoes and a flounct skirt…
As for the social pressure to conform, of course its part of the human existence. But as with almost everything else, it’s a matter of degree.
Most people don’t have to agonize over the length of their shaitel band or their earrings, the way many of us do.
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I have been watching from the sidelines quietly, and I have to disagree with Tzippi on this last point.
I try to instill in my kids not to care what others think, but to my consternation, it is something that is picked up “from the street”. Will my son wear sandals this summer (it’s good for his feet)? He will see first what others do. He can’t wear the sneakers he got, because it has a hint of orange, and others might say it’s “moderin”. And so on….
You can argue that it has nothing to do with religion per se, but I think that it’s pretty clear that the guise of of frumkeit can definitely multiplies the effect.
An outsider of the community will have a hard time understanding it unless he reads books such as those by Nathaniel Hawthorne. When reading The Scarlet Letter, I almost thought it was written about contemporary Williamsburg!
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I happen to agree with Tzippy. I to believe that Helle’s depiction of our lifestyle is condescending.
But of course it is. The reality is that our lifestyle IS condescending.
Tzippy, if you had to describe a woman who is two hundred pounds overweight, a cripple, and mentally unstable, could you do that without being offensive and “condescending”?
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Hoezen, that is exactly Tzippi’s argument, that Helle views our life style as condescending. You seem to agree with Helle on that, but it still is only an opinion, not fact, and if the book is supposed to be an objective work, her opinion doesn’t matter, and should not be in the book. By letting her personal view that the frum lifestyle is a sick one seep into a supposedly nonbiased work, yes, that can be seen as hateful.
(I personally also feel that there are many aspects to the frum society that is the equivalent to the above mentioned woman who is two hundred pounds overweight, a cripple, and mentally unstable, but I am not convinced that the secular society is any healthier.)
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” but I am not convinced that the secular society is any healthier”.
Kaf, there is no homogeneous secular society. There is no “us and them”, instead, there are many different thems.
I don’t think you understood my point. It is difficult to sugar cote something that is unappealing in the first place.
It’s the difference between calling someone a fat crazy cripple, versus calling her an overweight mentally and physically challenged woman.
Same difference.
The second description isn’t exactly wonderful either, because the reality isn’t too wonderful.
Btw, kaf, did you even read the book?
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This little Mrs. Tzippi Obnoxious just won’t quit with her nonsense, My God!
Tell me sweety, in YOUR community, (and please don’t make me spell out your address here) Can you step out with white shoes shabbos?
Can you dress in a red coat?
Can you drive? ( I read your lie about the supposed reason you don’t drive, but I tried to restrain myself)
Can you go to the grocery with a snood? (if you grow hair under your sheitel)
Can you do the grocery shopping in your summer colony dressed in your swimming robe?
Can you go out with sunglasses?( I know there are about 4 woman who do, and they are frowned upon.)
Can you put on a pony sheitel?
Can you wear a denim skirt?
Can you walk to your parents shabbos in a long robe?
Does your husband go with crocks to shul?
Can your husband stroll down the neighborhood on a blazing hot shabbos afternoon without a bekiche?
Silly Girl.
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Hoezen, I did not read the book yet, I reserved it at the library and I’ll be reading it this week, if I can find time.
My post was based on what you agreed with Tzippi that it was condescending.
“Kaf, there is no homogeneous secular society. There is no “us and them”, instead, there are many different thems.”
I misspoke. What I meant was that I haven’t found yet a society that is healthy enough to raise my kids there, for example. I do not want to raise them without any community either, so the frum one is maybe as good as any, even though there are definitely many issues I would love to change.
“I don’t think you understood my point. It is difficult to sugar cote something that is unappealing in the first place.”
When you have something that many thousands find appealing, how can you say that it’s a fact that it is unappealing? That is opinion, not fact. This isn’t an issue of math or science that you can say that those thousands are definitely mistaken. And as it happens, a large percentage of the people living in the community find it appealing and love it, whatever the reason may be, so how can you be so certain that it is “unappealing in the first place”?
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HT – As Kaf said, it is a community that she ‘perceived’ as overweight and crippled. Her perceptions have no place in a supposedly unbiased sociological study.
As discussed more times than we can ever count, regardless of community, regardless of lifestyle, everyone has their failings. The study of sociology is the study of the social behavior of a group. It is the analysis of societies’ development. It has no room for condescension, however much one may dislike one’s subject matter.
Society’s elites may be perceived by some as pompous asses, and may be ridiculed for their shallowness, but no fair sociologist will describe them as such. Intellectuals will most certainly be scoffed at by the fashion community, and while their lack of concern for matters of high couture might make it into a sociological description of the groups ‘focus, no fair sociologist would let it color her opinion of what makes the group tick.
Let alone the fact that our community is on no level an obese, and mentally unstable being. I see them as a refined and polite, sweetly sensual woman of valour – with beauty, dignity and grace. A warm, maternal image with a welcoming embrace. Charming wit, a razor sharp intellect, and infinite charm. I also see the occasional bout of acne.
But she’s my perception, my opinion – and I’m entitled to her. I’m not the one claiming to be a sociologist.
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I would like to add, that in the study of sociology, it is continuously stressed not to judge any other societies, because whatever your opinions might be, it is just based upon your own background, and sociology is supposed to be studying other cultures on their own, NOT based upon the views that you have from your own background and culture.
Is Helle a sociologist?
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Kaf,
Read the book. Many questioned may be answered that way. And if you can read it in an unbiased way you may end up agreeing with the author, or not – without questioning her integrity or motive.
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What I meant was that I haven’t found yet a society that is healthy enough to raise my kids there. I do not want to raise them without community either
Kaf, I don’t know about you, but I am the * kid* .
Why judge a lifestyle based on how healthy it is or isn’t, to be raised in ? Question should be, do you want to live that lifestyle for the rest of your life, *after* you have been raised?
”When you have something that many thousands find appealing, how can you say that it’s a fact that it is unappealing? That is opinion, not fact. This isn’t an issue of math or science that you can say that those thousands are definitely mistaken.
Kaf,
I was referring to specifics. Tzippy mentioned specific sentences in the book that she found condescending.
As for opinion versus fact, can I say that having cancer is a bad thing? That being homeless sucks? That the smell of urine is not appetizing? That acne is not beautiful??
Can I say that yeshivas hardly teach english and secular subjects, and that the women in chasidishe society actually do know more than the men?
Can I say that many feel that their fashion options are very limited? Can I say that so many woman I know are dying to dress very differently than they actually dare?
If I say that, will it sound condescending?
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Hoezen;
Why judge a lifestyle based on how healthy it is or isn’t, to be raised in ? Question should be, do you want to live that lifestyle for the rest of your life, *after* you have been raised?
I just brought that as an example, or as a measure of the “health” of a society, but you’re right.
“As for opinion versus fact, can I say that having cancer is a bad thing? That being homeless sucks? That the smell of urine is not appetizing? That acne is not beautiful??”
NO!Absolutely not as a sociologist!
Shtreimel, I will “iy”h” read the book, and I will try to have an open mind.
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“As for opinion versus fact, can I say that having cancer is a bad thing? That being homeless sucks? That the smell of urine is not appetizing? That acne is not beautiful??”
I take that back.
If I told you my friend has cancer and is homeless, would you feel I was being judgmental by trying to portray her as being in dire shape? Could I tell you about my friend without you pitying her?
Do you get my point?
Certain facts will sound condescending to the reader, not so much for the way its portrayed, but much more for the fact that it *is*.
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You describe it as a woman who is two hundred pounds overweight, a cripple, and mentally unstable, but I just can’t see it.
I see a practically non-existent issue of teens with STDs, and of babies born to unwed mothers. The drug problem, while on the rise, is still blessedly exponentially lower than the rest of the population, and our streets are amongst the safest in the country –due to no crimes and practically no acts of random vandalism.
But most of all, I see chesed in the millions of dollars – that comes from the generous and successful businessmen from within the community (despite no advanced education!). We’re a community where no one goes unfed – whether it is exhaustion or lack of money that kept the food from the family’s table. Where the sick get top medical advice and care – even with no expensive medical insurance. There’s quick emergency medical response, the burden of doctor appointments is mitigated by free ‘chesed’ transportation, there are groups of entertainers who visit the bedridden and infirm, and if someone requires an overnight hospital stay – rest assured there are many who will gallantly spent the night so that the parents of the child, or the children of the parent can have a little respite.
With just one phone call you’re never alone. Or out of gas. Or locked out. And no flat tire can leave you stranded. There are gemachim for maternity clothing, baby necessities, furniture, car seats, simcha ‘necessities’, kallah gowns, clothing for the family, and for every facet of living.
There are organizations that help those in crises- where people can even call anonymously and get assistance in any which area. Be it marital, concern regarding childrearing, medical, homemaking, financial, sexual abuse, depression – and the list goes on.
These are programs run by people who instead of wasting their day online bemoaning how fat and ugly our community has become, have each decided to step up and make this a more beautiful place. And they have.
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Hoezen, I get your point. As I said, I haven’t read the book yet, so I have no opinion on that.
But these two sentences from the book that Tzippi quoted, would seem slanted.
Some Hasidic women even work for pay,
and
most of them actually learn to speak and read better in English
DO only “some” hassidic women work for pay? That sounds like she is trying to portray Hassidic women as being dumbed down, and when a hassidic woman “EVEN works for pay”, that is considered to be a “major accomplishment”, and she is considered to be “out in the world”. If that is what she is trying to show, it is BS.
How about, they “actually” learn to speak better in english. Actually? Wow! They actually learn to speak English? I am amazed! I didn’t know they are smart enough and “allowed” to learn English! Get it?
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Tzippi, yes, there is a lot of good in the community, but there is definitely still a lot to work on. By ignoring those aspects, and exaggerating the good, you are weakening your argument.
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Tzippy, I’m sorry, but you absolutely did not get my point.
(In much the same way many daft readers did not get your point with “faking it oh god”)
You used it as a spring board to portray the community in the wonderful way which you did.
I will be generous, and let you get away with it.
For the futures, please understand that analogies are not meant to be taken seriously.
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HT – you stated some facts and some personal perceptions and you ask If I say that, will it sound condescending?
Actually? No. Facts in and of themselves aren’t condescending. That would depend on how you phrase it. She didn’t come out and focus on the negative – that would be too easy. And too easily condemned. Instead she pretended to focus on the entire lifestyle, but managed to – even in the areas where there was no negativity to be found! – she still managed a condescending tone.
As I’ve said before – not because our community is fat and ugly. But because she put the few acne blemishes under the microscope, enlarged it to 2000x its regular size, and saw that as the ‘Big’ picture.
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Do some hassidic women work for pay? That sounds like she is trying to portray Hassidic women as being dumbed down.
Which they absolutly are in comparision to your typical college educated American.
What should she have said?
Most women work? Many do? Or is it a few?
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She said some Hasidic women ‘even’ work for pay.
Are you really that daft as to not see the condescension??! Without the ‘even’ the point would have still been made, and perhaps more accurately. She inserted her own views with those few words throughout the book. All we’re arguing is that it isn’t sociology. It’s a skewed view from but one outsider.
So long as it is accepted as such, I’ve got no issues with it.
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Kaf – to focus on the positive isn’t to ignore the negative – just merely pointing out that the beauty exists.
HT – The ‘analogy’ was calling a complex system ‘ugly’. I looked at that complicated ‘ugly’ entity and saw much beauty.
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As for your list of community supports and accomplishments, let me say this.
Allow me the opportunity to send my children to medical and law school.
Make it acceptable and the norm for me to have four to six children instead of eight to twelve.
Teach your students to have the critical thinking skills so that they DON’T have to call a hot line when in need of marital, medical, psychiatric help (these hot lines do way more harm than good).
And then you can keep most of your Tzeddoke organizations.
Don’t deny me the skills to help myself. That is *real tzeddoke*. Putting a band aid on a self-inflicted wound, isn’t.
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Hoezen, many many women work. In many chassidishe communities I would venture to say that the percentage of women working isn’t any less the the average picket fence american family.
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Kaf, I wasn’t referring to lakewood. Your average chasidishe viebel age 23 to 45 doesn’t work. Reason they don’t is simple. You have to make enough money after paying a babysitter.
I don’t know the numbers, and I doubt anyone does. I would venture to say that perhaps fifteen- twenty five percent of chasidishe women work.
If we exclude the teachers, the numbers are much smaller.
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Hoezen, I LOVED your last post! You are soooo right with that! And I feel the same way.
But, (Doesn’t there always have to be a but?) not everyone would be better off your way. The people that can’t take care of themselves would be worse off. Capitalism vs. socialism. But then again, who says we can’t have both? People going to school, and chesed organizations for whoever can’t. But we’re getting sidetracked.
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HT – I’m surprised that you are that unfamiliar, but look around and you’ll find that you’re allowed to make the choice of going to medical school. Of those that have chosen those professions, and there are quite a few who have – and have not heard a peep from the community regarding their choices.
Sure, some gossipers ridicule, others commend. But the options exist. And I’m glad of it.
Similarly, I’ve heard no objections to those who choose to have between 4 and 6 kids. None. (And of those in my immediate circle, I don’t know any who plan to have more.)
And then there’s this fascinating thing on the rise in greater America. Despite ‘critical thinking skills’ being taught to all middleschoolers, the psychiatrist’s couch still sees more people than ever. More harm than good? Possibly. But advice and assistance aren’t an inherent evil. Quite the opposite.
True, I too opt for a more advanced education, but regardless of the many improvements I wish to see in this community, I wouldn’t for one moment choose to see even one of these helpful organizations close their doors.
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Hoezen, I LOVED your last post! You are soooo right with that! And I feel the same way.
But, (Doesnt there always have to be a but?) not everyone would be better off your way. The people that cant take care of themselves would be worse off. Capitalism vs. socialism. But then again, who says we cant have both? People going to school, and chesed organizations for whoever cant. But were getting sidetracked.
Re the other comment, why exclude the teachers?
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I have 2 comments awaiting moderation…I tried to repost, but no success. My point is that Hoezen is right, teach me to fish, so you won’t need to give me a fish. But we’re getting sidetracked.
Re the other comment, why exclude the teachers?
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Include the teachers or choose to ignore them – but since when did being a working mom become a lofty goal? Are we back in the 70s fighting for women’s liberation? Women are allowed to work. Currently the ‘in’ thing is to be a SAHM – (the oh so cool acronym for the Stay At Home Mom).
How’s this conversation even relevant? Women can and may and some do work. Others don’t. Big whoop!
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Again Tzippy, you are taking my comment and tweaking and spinning it to make your own point.
We were not discussing the value of staying home or going to work.
Kaf, your right, I shouldn’t have excluded the teachers. Then again, Kolel yingerliet get paid as well
JK
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But really, why would you even think of excluding the teachers?
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Kaf, as per HT, teaching is obviously not a respectable enough position.
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HT – we were not discussing the value of being a working mom. Indeed not. But we were discussing whether or nor Hella Winston’s tone was derogatory when she listed how few work.
Her tone was. It indicated that it was an odd phenomenon. And yet you went on to point out that she might be right. That indeed there aren’t ‘enough’ working moms. You went on to point out the low percentages, and the lack of respectable positions held.
I don’t get how that is relevant to the argument.
The points that are irrefutable are:
Hasidic women can and do work. It isn’t an anomoly and it isn’t expected of them either. One could argue that from a sociological perspective it isn’t even relevant at all.
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Little Mrs. Tzippi, I s it true what Insider ie saying? They really don’t allow women in bikinies in the local Supermarket? Also no Crocks, what a shame! ! can not imagine how you get by the day. I feel soooooo sorry for you and all the Men and women in your Commnnuity.
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yippy –
He asked about robes, not bikinis.
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People here seem not to be able to differentiate between something that is really frowned upon because it goes against our belief system, (whether you agree with that system or not is not the issue, every community has its own value system, and is rightly entitled to it), and things which are just self imposed stupidities, such as men not wearing crocks to a wedding (I exaggerate, but I hope you get the point). Nobody is looked down upon for violating the latter, they are just looked at funny, but if you violate the former, why should you not be looked down upon, aren’t they entitled to their own belief’s? And they believe it’s wrong! what’s wrong with that? If you don’t like it, move out! And if they will call you an OTD, well, isn’t that what they believe? Why can’t they believe a certain way? No, they do not accept the view that as long as you don’t bother anyone else, you’re good. They believe tht if you flick a switch on shabbos, you are liable for the death penalty, and you will burn in hell, I don’t see anything wrong with such a belief system.
There are some other things, for example going to medical school, which a segment believes to be wrong, let’s say, because the goyishe atmosphere you’re going to be immersed in ; what’s wrong in believing that? Another segment wouldn’t look at it favorably, because they might believe that it would come at too great of cost, for example torah learning or raising a family. Now, whether you agree or not, why aren’t they entitled to feel that way?
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oh shuts… He did say robes, but what the heck lets be critical of the commnnunity for not allowing bikinis. We might as well, after all the rest of the world dosnt have a problem with it.
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Darn this Pesach cleaning. Apparently I missed another of Insider’s gems before it was removed.
Pity.
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Tzippi, it wasn’t removed, it’s still there, way up there. I didn’t either see it until now. Looks like the “waiting for moderation scheme” has something to it….
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tzippi, it’s not removed, it took quite a while for the moderation process. It’s up there. But good that you preempted the “gem” strike, maybe it’ll make you feel better so you won’t have to run to bed and cry due to male dominance. Nebech. Shaifeleh.
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Hey Insider, you think I’m worried about spelling out the community I’m from? Have I ever NOT mentioned it? I’m from Williamsburg. Satmar. I’m as ‘inside’ as they come. And on your pop quiz I scored a 8/11.
Not a perfect score. But since it was the dumbest and most irrelevant lil questionaire I came across in quite some time – I’ll take it.
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Tzipp, I understand your anger sister, I understand your outburst, but you have to calm down and not show how wild you are, at least *act* cool and in control. No, 8/11 is a monster lie. The only thing you do is the sunglasses. Whom do you think you’re bluffing here??
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Insider, 8 out of 11 is no lie. It is the absolute truth. And for the record, the question wasn’t so much of what I actually do – but what I can do.
(For example: I don’t wear white shoes on Shabbos this season – only because it isn’t fashionable. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with the color of the shoes at all – seeing as I can wear it during the week.)
I find all of your comments comical, but none as much as when you suspect me of being angry. All day this was somewhat bordering on an intellectual debate. Thank you for turning it into silly comedy.
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Insider,
Why can’t a community decide for themselves what they believe is right or wrong, without your approval? I am still waiting for a response on my earlier post regarding this.
Thank you.
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Kaf, you’re asking for too much. Insider isn’t capable of responding to an actual intelligent question.
But he’s good at creating irrelevant quizzes. And making idiotic statements.
Let’s leave well-enough alone.
(I’m hoping that this comment goes thru. My previous one is still awaiting moderation.)
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Insider and tzip, what am I missing? What kinda test are you taking/giving?
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HT, all the way on the top of this page, Insider posed 11 queries. Whether one can wear sunglasses, a long robe, white shoes, a snood, and other such meaningless questions that have absolutely no bearing on the conversation we have been having.
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Hoezen, it took me a second too.
I will repost it for the benefit of whoever missed it.
Can you step out with white shoes shabbos?
Can you dress in a red coat?
Can you drive? ( I read your lie about the supposed reason you don’t drive, but I tried to restrain myself)
Can you go to the grocery with a snood? (if you grow hair under your sheitel)
Can you do the grocery shopping in your summer colony dressed in your swimming robe?
Can you go out with sunglasses?( I know there are about 4 woman who do, and they are frowned upon.)
Can you put on a pony sheitel?
Can you wear a denim skirt?
Can you walk to your parents shabbos in a long robe?
Does your husband go with crocks to shul?
Can your husband stroll down the neighborhood on a blazing hot shabbos afternoon without a bekiche?
Silly Girl.
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Two comments awaiting moderation this time.
What could these auto-censors possibly have found offensive in such mild comments?
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kaff, I didn’t see your comment but hey, I’m sure it’s real seep man! I mean tzippi herself says that I’m not intelligent enough for such amazing depths, the queen of stupidity and obnoxiousness herself!
Now to your point, of course a community can decide! And that’s exactly my point. Mrs. Hypocrite asserted that she was brought up in a enviroment of not minding what other people think or have to say, so I asked her, well, is this true? Can you do the following things? And of course she had to lie, I mean, according to her, a satmer woman in willy can drive!! Go figure, what a basket case.
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I took his poll, and me and my wife would get an 8. I am as “inside” as they come.
The one with the white shoes I don’t understand.
The red coat is in Shulchan Aruch, so my wife wouldn’t do it.
And she wouldn’t wear a denim skirt.
That’s all. And I think we are considered very ehrlich and tzniusdik.
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