Square One
[Point-Counterpoint]
This essay is Part 2 of a two-part point-counterpoint series.
Click here to read Part 1: One Giant Leap.
We all love sex. We like it in the darkness of night when all we can hear are the strange house noises from electrical appliances, during broad daylight with the sounds of bustling crowds around us, or as the birds begin to chirp in the wee small hours of dawn. We like to vary our positions, play out roles, employ props of all sorts. Sometimes we like it gentle, sometimes wildly passionate, and on occasion, purely animalistic. We like it on our kitchen floors, in the stairwells of our office buildings, on boulders high atop wooded mountains, or in empty hotel lobbies at 3 AM. We like to do it, talk about it, and hear about who’s doing it with whom, illicit or otherwise (although the former is preferable). Gossip is best served of the salacious variety.
There’s no doubt that sex has a powerful hold on us – not least because it is necessary for our species’ survival. Imagine if people’s attitudes towards sex would be the same as eating, say, pecan pie: yeah, it’s good, but eh, I can do without it. We’d have long gone the way of the dinosaur, the saber-toothed tiger, and wooly North American mammoth.
Yes, Chasidic life is restrictive, sometimes even oppressive. The rules and customs that govern life run in the thousands, and as some have pointed out, the most acutely felt restrictions are sex-related. Religious rules govern how and when, how frequently, and with whom you may or may not engage in sexual activity.
Why sex is deemed such an uncouth activity baffles many. Embrace sex, some argue, take pleasure in a good romp in the sack the way nature intended. But, well, religion is religion, and religion doesn’t lend itself to those kinds of arguments. Religion is obstinate and unwieldy. If a rule doesn’t make sense, well, you’re sheer outa luck. If you buy into a religion’s foundational principles, you go with its doctrines and abide by its rules.
But it’s that little phrase that is key: If you buy into a religion’s foundational principles. If you believe in God, his revelation, and whatever code of ethics and morals he is said to have handed down, directly or indirectly, then your options are limited. Don’t like a specific rule? That’s too bad. The question isn’t whether you like it or agree with it, only whether you buy into the principle that commands it.
But one thing should be clear: rejecting a lifestyle because its rules are unpleasant makes no logical sense. If you believe in a given set of doctrines, the inconvenience of a given rule is immaterial. And if you don’t believe in it, well, then too its inconvenience is immaterial; there’s no need to follow it if you don’t believe in it. Blaming a lifestyle for its strictures is senseless if one doesn’t first reject its underlying premises. And if the underlying premise falls away, there’s no point in whining about this or that bit of unpleasantness or vilify others who haven’t come to the same conclusions.
Of course, one can – in the sense that it’s physically possible to – pick and choose those rules and restrictions that one agrees with, and discard those that are deemed inconvenient. But doing so makes a mockery of whatever beliefs one clings to, and that kind of adherence to religious doctrine is a sham.
Similarly, one might argue that one or another stricture is man-made, not a result of divine commandment, a mere human graft upon an otherwise magnificent tree of knowledge and wisdom, a foreign growth that corrupts the original intent of that body of divine inspiration. But there again, such an approach is the ultimate in arbitrary judgment, a mere exercise in adjusting what some consider immutable philosophies to the whims of individual or societal preferences.
But there’s a more important consideration in this discussion.
The sexual restrictions found in religious lifestyles might seem excessive, forcing adherents to abide by rules that seem antiquated and primitive. But to focus on sexual repression alone is mistaken in two ways.
The first is that it boils down all the ills of Chasidic society to one very small aspect, a minor one at that. To say that those born into a Chasidic lifestyle have it bad because they don’t get the college experience of hooking up at frat parties and enjoying the pleasures and thrills of living in a co-ed dorm represents a view that values the hedonistic in its most primal over all. It can be argued that there’s nothing wrong with that. As one who holds that absolute values are almost non-existent, I would be hard-pressed to make a cogent argument to the contrary. But most humans share a common recognition that the human experience encompasses joys and thrills that go beyond the primal and animalistic. Sex is good, delightfully so, perhaps the greatest of human pleasures. But it isn’t the be all and end all of human experience.
The second mistake is to think that those outside of ultra-Orthodox societies are living lives of heavenly pleasure while the rest rot in their hellish confines of sexual repression. Such a view is, to put it bluntly, immature; it over-romanticizes secularism and its freedoms to an absurd degree.
Yes, the secular world allows for romantic encounters and passionate entanglements might be denied to those in the Chasidic world. Secular adolescents and young adults have sexual opportunities that, to a Chasid, world hardly enter the realm of fantasy. If you’re lucky enough to be secular, you might get luckier and get a blow job on the school bus from your cute sixth-grade classmate in pigtails. But then again, if luck is in your stars you might be born to a filthy rich head of a multi-national conglomerate and have no lack of earthly pleasures. You, my friend, just happen to be unlucky. Being unlucky isn’t pleasant, but human lives are profoundly determined by the forces of nature’s indifference. One can’t blame any particular person or society for being dealt a bad deck of cards. You’re not the offspring of a filthy rich daddy, and you weren’t born into a society where carnal pleasures are to be had at every turn. Deal with it.
Furthermore, to see the world outside the ghetto as being purely fun-filled, with the masses engaging in carnal pleasures at every turn is mistaken. It isn’t all a bed of roses. Misery doesn’t discriminate, and people the world over are miserable for a variety of reasons. One need only attend one of the many singles events to see the masses of jaded and frustrated individuals who struggle through short-lived flings and ill-conceived romantic encounters to realize that some might actually relish the structured lifestyle of the shidduch system, where courtship is formal and short but reliable. The secular world provides loads of fun for some and agony and frustration for many. On balance, the degrees of misery and pleasure are probably on equal footing in both worlds.
Ultimately, we’re back to square one. For those with faith, the lack of sexual opportunities might be unpleasant but they’re rather insignificant in the scheme of things. For those without faith, the religious world provides far greater disadvantages than sexual repression.
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Wow. Powerful. I agree with every single word in this article. I’ve held this view for quite some time now, but HR brought it out so beautifully and eloquently, kedarkoi. You speak the truth, my friend!
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Perfect article as usual, I can’t agree more. If I’d be convinced to believe that God wants me to lie under a bed and eat only carrots indefinitely it would be doable. But if the existence of such God or his wishes would be in doubt, or worse then even lifting a finger would be too hard.
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My dear friend Sholom, I beg to differ.
First of all, sex is the ultimate pleasure this world has to offer. No other pleasure comes close, no other pleasure is so passionate, lustful, and exciting. Which other pleasure is greater than sex? food? a good meal? doesn’t come close. Money? nope, would a person be willing to accept 10 million bucks and abstain from sex for life? I don’t think so.
I once came out from an appointment from a large skyscraper in Manhattan, as I gazed and tried to absorb the rich splendor around me, an elder Frei businessman approached me and says in fluent yiddish ” Yingerman! do you see all those tall building and skyscrapers around you? all this magnificent luxury around you? they all revolve around one little shtikel… (piece)….
Now lets compare the average Hasid to the average goy, the average hasid sleeps in his lifetime with 1 woman. (the pious ones..) the average goy sleeps with 6 – 10. The average “charming” goy bangs 20 – 30 – 40 in his lifetime, the average hasid 1. The Average goyish heartthrob bangs in the high numbers, the average hasidish hunk (is there such a thing?) bangs 1. So you tell me, are we hasidim missing out or not?? or course, in reality we’re not missing anything, because in the world to come we will have plenty of Maluchemtes to sleep with….
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Similarly, one might argue that one or another stricture is man-made, not a result of divine commandment…. But there again, such an approach is the ultimate in arbitrary judgment…
Judaism has a code of law: Bible, Talmud, poskim, etc. All rules and customs of the Chassidic lifestyle could be, or should be, traced up to their origins. As you’re certainly aware, the majority of rules are not God given, but rabbinical. And some practices not even that. The author of part-1 vented on the laxity of proper hygiene, for example. While I don’t agree that Chassidim generally stink, the complaint is rooted in truth. Now there is no rule requiring filthiness, except during the nine-days, of which one can plausibly argue wasn’t meant to a daily bathing society.
There is a strong case that restrictions on the loathed sexual pleasure is man made too. Biblical figures constantly indulge in romantic dalliances and God doesn’t give as much as a wince. Sure God is wrathful, but His wrath is reserved for sexual perversities. Biblical rules of adultery could be categorized as societal, not worship.
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It must be news then, this mindboggling fact that there are people who submit to lifelong abstinence – by choice! And it must further surprise you then that you will never find anyone in the entire universe who will accept ’10 million bucks’ to abstain from eating or drinking or sleeping or even human / social interaction.
But that isn’t to say that sex is not the ultimate physical pleasure – I’m simply making the point that people can survive without it. Many do.
And many others will tell you that a lifetime of great sex with only one’s beloved, is probably far more satisfying than being turned down countless times, those heartbroken by rejection after the fact, or the sexless lives of those cursed unfairly with unsightly homeliness.
Which brings us back to HR’s point of luck. The unsuccessful businessman, the socially inept stutterer, the physically infirm youngster, the poor and unkempt vagrant – they don’t see much action either.
They don’t get to ‘bang’ – or love and be loved – by even just a measly ‘1’.
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Not to mention the fact that just about every girl would be absolutely charmed by the darling suggestion of being ‘banged’.
It is indeed every girl’s dream to experience a multitude of sexual partners to whom she is nothing bed a notch on the bedpost.
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Insider — I don’t disagree that there’s no single pleasure greater than sex. I said as much explicitly: “Sex is good, delightfully so, perhaps the greatest of human pleasures.”
But if sex was all there was to life then you’d see people screwing non-stop and doing nothing else. Obviously, people have interests and desires that aren’t sexual. And it can be argued that while no single desire is greater than sex, all non-sexual human desires taken together do add up to at least provide serious competition. The acquisition of knowledge, taking pleasure in the arts (literary, musical, fine arts, performance), general socializing, various hobbies and interests, and other such endeavors fill out the human experience in a way that is vastly more enriching than engaging in the singular pleasure of sex.
I would argue that the sexual repression so common in the Chasidic world leads to the sentiment you espouse. Those who’ve had their fill of sexual pleasures in its many forms can attest to the fact that while it is supremely satisfying, over time it makes one feel empty and unfulfilled. Eventually, even those with the most varied opportunities for sex will seek out endeavors that are more fulfilling.
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Saducee — Rabbinical authority is derived indirectly from general rules that ultimately trace back to the Bible. Whether it’s the commandment of “Lo sasur yamin o smol,” or “Torah lo bashamayim hie,” or “Chazal’s drush on “Uva’asa el-hakohen asher yiheyeh bayamim hahem,” implying that “Ein lecha kohen ela shebeyamecha.” Without this broad divine authority, rabbinical rules would carry no weight.
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Tzippi, the only people who absinate from sex are the religious fanatics – universally, no other reason can be found.
and if you felt insulted by my use of the word bang, let me apologize, it was a mere euphomism. Of course you sweet ladies have much much more to offer.
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HR as always job well done.
Insider you’re funny, but with all due respect life isn’t as rosy in reality as it is on paper, and no, sex isn’t everything, yes I agree I wouldn’t agree to abstinance for 10 million bucks, but I would agree to having one girl for life and 10m, than 40 girls and a poor life.
BTW it goes both ways, in a life that you get to bang 30 40 girls, you end up marrying someone who was banged by 500-600 guys, that is if you’re lucky, you might also end up with a susan boyle type and get a virgin, life doesn’t get any better than that.
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I don’t think it was just the use of the word bang. I also felt that the focus was on the quantity of women conqured that you ascribed the pleasure to. Not a very enlightened attitude.
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Farchapt, what’s the problem with your scenario? you bang 20 girls, she bangs 20 dudes, you get it out of you system and Hasta La Vista! off you go! rather than running around with a loaded gun for life, mahn! And your ratio, 20-30 to 500-600, how did you come up with those numbers?
Are you so selfish? can you only drive a car which others haven’t driven? does it loose its beauty? Humans were made and created to interact and bond with each other! you feel’em out, you tour the playground, explore the field, have a good time, you choose one, and settle down. There’s no need to decide on one so fast….
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Ok I didn’t want to bore everyone, but you wanna learn some statistics, let’s do the math.
For every 100 guys, 100 of them wants to bang.
For every 100 gals, mabe 70 are interested.
From those 70 maybe 30 are interested in multiple relationships.
With such a small percentage of gals, 100 guys have to share banging only 30, now if the biggest hunk was able to bang all 30 gals he will most probably score to marry the hottest gal who had an infinite option of guys to score with.
See it wasn’t so complicated after all.
Btw I have never bought a used car in my life, it’s not selfish, it’s just a matter of taste.
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With all this talk about bangin’, where is HT?
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And I forgot to add first of all, a public toilet YUCK! Second yeah it does, you can recognize a slut from a mile away
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I suppose this is the measured corrective to Part 1 of this article and I do agree with it, emunah shlayma.
Sex in the secular world is not democratic. Some people are able to get more of it, with more people, and others, less and with less interested partners. Although this is not enough of a reason to be frum, sex in traditional societies is more socialistic. Most people have only one partner and one person with whom to do it. This is regardless of how handsome or how charming and manipulative one is…or how pretty or how appealing ones personality is…
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Than your average gal is a slut and a public toilet. The average gal has several partners in her life span. You are in just the perfect environment pal, only here will you get yourself a virgin. With all the side benefits you get from the setup….
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Generalizations are generally injudicious.
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And yet again, here’s another article about sex. Although I note that the Love and Relationships logo has disappeared from the masthead.
Seeing as part of the discussion here is about how great (or otherwise) sex is, I thought it might bear repeating something I once read in a book. The author wrote that the pleasure of the rewards we will receive in the world to come will be far, far greater than the greatest orgasm we have ever had (Yes, I am paraphrasing!).
How’s that for a description!
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” the pleasure of the rewards we will receive in the world to come will be far, far greater than the greatest orgasm we have ever had”
Frummer, I’m not impressed.
Personally, I prefer the 70 virgin version.
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Sex has not been much of a blessing to my life.
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Hoezen
to quote a comment from another website:
“Virgins? I’ll take 3-4 sluts any day over 70 virgins. But that’s me, no midrash.”
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I venture to guess that once past the college age, married people get laid much more frequently that those out prowling for someone new every night.
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Sarah you are probably right in general, but also take in consideration, you’ll be eating the same food every day for 70 years.
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Frummer, if you’d like to know how big is the role sex plays in life, all you need to do is take one look at a certain religious group in NY that I heard about.
They have built two entirely separate mini societies from the ground up within the larger society, solely to suppress sexual urges. That should tell you something about sex…
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There is a point in life where the fire simmers down. At that time, you realize that all the sex you had in your past doesn’t mean that much. Nobody wants it to say on their tombstone how many people they “banged”. Actually, the most important and meaningful memories are those related to the people you really care about, not the ones you just enjoyed and forgot. Also, most of the things you regret or wish you could do over do not relate to physical pleasures, but rather they relate to interactions with other human beings. You face questions like, “Why did I not help him/her when I had the chance?”, “Why did I say something so hurtful just because I was angry?”
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Insider wrote:
“your average gal is a slut and a public toilet”
That is a hateful, hateful comment. It’s attitudes like yours that put the misery into sex.
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Sarah, was this the first hint that he is the “player” type of guy?
It was obvious from the first comment on this thread.
But hey I don’t blame him, this is typical for someone growing up in a box with a peephole facing Cancun. You have to understand the additude that a chasidish guy grows up with, they are not bad people, they just didn’t get the right education, look at how kids behave, you have to tell him “play nice” same thing with ex-chasids, we need to have a program online to explain to them how the outside world rules.
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Sara,do you know how to read english,, did you notice that there was a mystyrious wortd “than” before the quote you chose to derive from my statement?? Are you dumb? And talk about someone thinking he conquered the world farchat, oich mer an oigkekleretr tzim tish.What do you know kid? You watched 24 and you feel an accomplished sheigetz now? Relax, having an opinion of how the world out there works doesn’t make you an actual player and reading a John Grisham book doesn’t make you highly elitist or very educated, for all you know I might and I probably blow you away into thin dust. Chill dude!
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Sorry, my monikor was mispelled.
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Your moniker should be the least of your worries. (since we’re getting personal anyhow.)
I really enjoyed the peephole facing cancun metaphor. I think it’s really accurate for many..
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excuse me insider, my comment should have been directed to farchapt.
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Disclaimer: Insider’s deal ain’t a lack of education. Nor is it due to the assumed incomplete social adaptation, which is ‘inherent’ to the Chasidic lifestyle.
His repulsive views are his own, and do not at all represent the views of other chasidim (nor any sane and decent human being.)
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This piece has effectively scraped all the interpersonal meat off the business of sex, isolated the issue entirely and managed to peer at the reproductive activity of the homo-specie from a purely rational stance, so much so that we’re all analyzing the factual data here without getting distracted by subjective factors we experience in sex like infatuation, passion, insanity, lovers, relationships, significant others and then children.
The error is in seperating a subject so much larger, and peering at the dogs humping like the shchina does. Had you said casual sex, I would have agreed. But you used not as narrow or specific a term. If you look at sex as a strictly physical activity your conclusion holds. But sex is so much more; it is emotional, spiritual, religious, instinctive and the very foundation of our most important relationships. Sex is interrelated with romance, passion and often long term companionship. If this isn’t reason to make life’s choices, what to the hedonist is?
This isn’t a mathamatical equation. You can’t calculate mikvah nights versus “banging” and sum up the value of either life. Sleeping with someone of similar sheineh mishpucheh for life, having his/her children but feeling no itch of attraction isn’t the same as paying $50 bucks for the glories of the shiksa-velt nor the same as being deeply passionate about a marital partner, the kind of passion that has taken the forfront of human preoccupation as far back as clay tablets tell.
Quality relationships are sufficient motivation to make significant changes in life. It’s usually why people *dont* make changes, so it’s value is evident. There is never a guarantee to find what one’s looking. But if we compute the odds of the shadchen’s doings against going out to search by one’s self, the latter is clearly a better bet.
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Before you blow me into thin dust Sir Insider, you might wanna polish up your grammer and spelling a bit.
(Woe woe I’m crumbling….help!!!…nah I’m still one piece)
Sarah I thought I’m on your side?! I guess you are not and you’re sharing insider’s belief on relationships, I appologize for being politically correct.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
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Couldn’t agree more Shpitzle
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And I dont think it was necessary for you to expose your readers to the “brechatz” of the first article to make your point, regardless of the truth and elequence of the latter.
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farchapt, I must give up. You win!! I mean, you caught me red handed with a typo or two while I thumped away on my little BB. You’re gooooooood!! Farfalen, oz m’ken, ken mehn.
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Mr. Insider, aren’t you a bit embarresed of what you wrote about women? I don’t know if you were joking or not, but it came off very filthy. I’m not an elitist, I barely had an english education, but the little I try to learn the outside culture, step 1 is to treat people equally. Not the way you were thought in the box. (The rabbi is the most important, then comes bneishiks, the comes tattes, then bochurim, and finally women and children).
Just one more point, even if you’re anonimous, doesn’t give you the right to degrade people in public. I don’t know about you but most of my friends know my unpious handle, so I have to keep in check.
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Farchapt,
Most people possess a modicum of decency. Most people are also aware of what sort of behavior might make them come across as a jackass.
By definition though, not all people are most people. Not even in real life.
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HR wrote: Ultimately, we’re back to square one. For those with faith, the lack of sexual opportunities might be unpleasant but they’re rather insignificant in the scheme of things. For those without faith, the religious world provides far greater disadvantages than sexual repression.
I think you’re conclusion is too black & white. There are people who do have faith yet feel the sexual restrictions are significant enough to make them go out and explore. It’s significant enough to make them want to be like the non-faithful, even though, as you correctly point out, it’s not logical (sex and logic never got along…). Having true faith has to be one of the most challenging things ever. You’re asking someone to believe in something he can’t and never will see for himself.
Yes, for the true pious ones, sex might be insignificant, but for the average one it’s pretty significant.
Insider, I haven’t read this blog in a while, but your funny posts make me want to come back. Thanks for all the laughs today
Love you like a brother!
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I’d abstain from sex for life for ten million bucks. (I don’t like sex very much).
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Are you male or female?
If you’re male you probably lie.
If you’re female, ha, we know that a lot of women aren’t interested.
You didn’t mechadesh anything significant. Maybe Insider would be in total shock.
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Back to the point/counterpoint. I see the first article as written under duress of entrapment, by a tortured soul, having really been robbed of the highest pleasure on earth for no other reason than to serve some shitty almighty.
Whereas the second article was written as a person who has thrown off his shackles, tasted the freedom out there, and forgotten about his forlorn brothers still entrapped to the point that he can hardly relate to what were his own feelings less than a fortnight before.
Forget thy not your fellow hassid for you have suffered as him….
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Farchapt, you “didn’t” mechadish?
Talk about a lack of proper education.
You are far from evolved yourself.
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Farchapt, you “didn’t” mechadish?
Talk about a lack of proper education.
You are far from evolved yourself.
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Nat, or whatever name you decide to choose; are you ready for the shock of a lifetime?
ok sit down, easy, now click on the link below.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=apmaEKDvazoE&refer=canada
Ouch!!! I know it hurts, it just so happend that I’m from the lucky 6, oh yeah! life IS goooood!!!
BUT you can always go for help, I believe most of those cases can be healed, it’s just that they are not interested in being cured, usually it’s the unattractive ones, who wouldn’t get any anyway.
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Farchapt,
You really are more dense than even I could imagine.
I was referring to your english grammar.
You *were not* mechadish anything, rather then you* didn’t* mechadish anything.
And while we’re at, let me tell you. You are the sexist chauvinistic brute, and not Insider.
You are the one with the double standards;you think ‘ lucky stud’ for the male who gets the action, and ‘ public toilet’ for the female who dares do the same
You see yourself as progressive and egalitarian, when in essence you are nothing other than a Xchasidishe boor.
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While everyone is busy correcting everyone else’s “grammer” around here, I might as well do the same, and show off how evolved I am, from my little phone nuch oich.
Whythe, duress and entrapment are legal concepts which have no relevance whatsoever (I like that word, yea) to what you were saying. Don’t mistake that to be like an emperor without clothes, rather it’s the clothes without the emperor…
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ooops, after the word “evolved” I forgot to insert the correct html tag, and since I am on my phone, I cannot go back to correct it.
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Earlier you spelled it “than”, now you used “then”. Eeeboiys eima, TEIPECH, eeeboiyis eima loi teipech…. ve’iduch zil gmoir….
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Nat, “than” “than” “than” “than” “than”, it’s one thing making spelling mistakes, but using words that changes the context of the sentence ? com’on!
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“For those with faith, the lack of sexual opportunities might be
unpleasant but they’re rather insignificant in the scheme of things.”
The sexual restrictions that are usually synonymous with the stern religious lifestyles are not only
excessive, antiquated and primitive, but also abusive, agonizing, and
burdensome.
Matchmaking in the orthodox community is in no way based on sexual
chemistry. Consequently, if a marriage lacks love, passion, and
physical attraction, its not only lacking in sexual pleasure, rather it
can also lead to discomfort, distress; and a more general physical and emotional
discontent.
For most women it is very difficult to have sexual intercourse with
a man they don’t love, even if he is physically attractive (very
uncommon). It is one thing to cook and launder, and a whole other thing to
devote one’s body for an undesirable adventure, not to mention fake
sexual pleasure.
The problem only worsens when the physical attraction is in
question. The redhead, long bearded, bespectacled ‘Talmid Chochom’
might be a devoted and loyal husband, but which woman would want him
to kiss her nipples?
So its not only about the 10 minutes cumshot, Vei Zmeer. It’s more
about the woman you are so not attracted to, and will be back from the
Mikvah in ten minutes.
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“The redhead, long bearded, bespectacled ‘Talmid Chochom’
might be a devoted and loyal husband, but which woman would want him
to kiss her nipples?”
Speak for yourself. There is nothing inherently unattractive with red bearded talmidei chachamim. coming from a family of them I take offense.
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Logic aside, sex has really nothing to do with going OTD. People who have no issues with the religion and are just interested in sex, have no problem going after it, bekeshes and all. I’m sure I’ve encountered more than my fair share.
What gets me most is when they call themselves “open minded.” Depends what part of their body they think their mind is in.
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The redhead, long bearded, bespectacled Talmid Chochom
might be a devoted and loyal husband, but which woman would want him
to kiss her nipples?
My wife, who I doubt is an exception.
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You are missing the point, Sara.
I tried being cautious with the description. Fill in the blanks however you like.
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Kaf,
Any language more fitting to talk about a crazed, ritualistic to the point of obsession, mechanically legalistic culture, than archaic legal terminology? And no, I’m not referring to the Yiddish culture in general, but rather to the fatalistic re-implanted chasiddish/ultra-orthodox one that is dominant in our community.
The heck with your “grammer”.
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Wythe, it’s legal terminology, but not archaic.
And this for the other “highly evolved” individuals out there: Even though I am not the one that started this entire discussion about “grammer”, I DO want to point out that the “grammer” on here today wasn’t much better than on VIN…
Now, as long as the content of the posts are good and thought provoking, I won’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, but when the arguments are basically “vehr iz ah gresserre rahser mit ah leingerre shmahsser”, I might as well go back to Yeshiva World….
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Isha Yefastoar, I really don’t understand what you are saying.
“The sexual restrictions that are usually synonymous with the stern religious lifestyles are not only
excessive, antiquated and primitive, but also abusive, agonizing, and
burdensome.”
The shidduch system may not be based on sexual chemistry, but that doesn’t mean it is ignored. I think most people do not marry someone they are not physically attracted to. You can be set up with some guy you don’t find attractive and, guess what, you can say no. Just because you are set up with someone for reasons other than personality and physical compatibility does not mean that you must or will marry someone you don’t love.
And what exactly is primitive about sexual restrictions? I find the notion of having sex with whoever you want more primitive than the idea self-control.
I am also a bit confused about whether your comment is bemoaning women who are married to great but unattractive guys, or women who are forced to have sex with a good looking man who (or is it whom
) they do not love. And why do those seem to be the only possibilities?
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Isha, I have to disagree with your assumption regarding the redhead, long bearded, bespectacled ‘Talmid Chochom.
Don’t forget, the vast majority of these men are married to pongolo and turban clad, eight months pregnant yentas.
And besides, are you suggesting that physically unattractive men and women stand no chance at being desired and loved?
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Isha, you speak of sexual chemistry with no regard for the love and emotional bond that – even if not fully present at the onset – does form in most marriages. There’s more to love than mere physical beauty, and when it is the character and personality that captures the heart, physical intimacy is the preferred (and much enjoyed) expression of that love and commitment.
And Sarah, you are so right! There is little more primitive and unevolved than the Neanderthalic obsession with sexual exploits. If anything, it is self-control (and by extension – marital fidelity) that is reserved for the mature and evolved – perhaps even ‘sophisticated’ – adult.
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“Just because you are set up with someone for reasons other than
personality and physical compatibility does not mean that you must or
will marry someone you don’t love.”
Very well said, Sara.
Just because you are set up with someone for reasons other than
personality and physical compatibility doesn’t mean you can’t *date*
them for two hours and determine if you *love* them or not. It doesn’t mean that you can’t
take them for a test drive, inquire about their penis size, and familiarize yourself with their performance.
But these things are rather insignificant in the greater scheme of things, aren’t they?
Bike,
I didn’t address a particular gender. Hence the last sentence of my previous
comment.
True, the streets of Williamsburg are overflowing with unattractive
men and women, but that’s irrelevant.
Is an unattractive male ultimately attracted to an unattractive female?
Furthermore, we all know beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We are not here to
determine who is attractive and who is not. However, we can safely
Assume that intercourse with a partner you are not attracted to can be a very tiresome and painful experience.
I don’t suggest that ’physically unattractive men and women stand no
chance of being desired and pursue worthy.’ I only elucidate that undesired
sex can be agonizing and contemptuous.
The article focuses on the sexual disadvantage the religious lifestyle
initiates; that is, the lack of sexual opportunities. In my comment I attempted to shed light on another abomination related to the recreational properties of sex for the ultra orthodox religious person, who is unfortunate enough to have an arranged marriage, which can lead to undesired sex with an undesired partner.
Tzippy,
The article doesn’t discuss whether or not love and sexual pleasure exist in the arranged marriages. The article argues that sexual repression is not a valid reason to reject a lifestyle.
Of course, you might be ‘arranged’ to marry an attractive rich guy you will fall in love with.
Analogously, sex in the ultra orthodox community could have been romantic, passionate, and satisfying. But then, there would be no point in writing this two-part point-counterpoint series.
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the laws of sex have a certain brillaint balance to them if followed properly. the chiyuv of onah abligates a set minimum of sex. a man is forbiden to force and a woman is not supposed to refuse. this makes a couple do their very best to make things work to eacj fulfill their obligation….
suri, I miss you so!
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I am not sure whether people in the orthodox community are missing out because they can’t take people out for test drives or experiment by having lots of lovers. I do not see that people who have had these experiences are happier in their marriages than those who have only had sex with one person their whole lives. I think that there are pro’s and cons to both situations, so I am not sure which path leads to a more satisfactory marriage or sex life.
What do you mean by arranged marriages? Is it common in the chasidish community for a girl to be told simply that she is marrying so and so, or by arranged marriages do you mean people being set up on dates? I don’t really know much about the dating and marriage practices of the chasidish community as opposed to the orthodox litvush community.
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“If you’re lucky enough to be secular, you might get luckier and get a blow job on the school bus from your cute sixth-grade classmate in pigtails.”
What parallel universe do you inhabit?! Sixth grade secular Jews and goyim do not give/receive blow-jobs. What nonsense!
I was raised a goy, converted to Orthodox Judaism at age 27, lived/taught/learned in a Litvish yeshiva for many years, and then left the yeshiva velt to go frei at age 43. So, 27 years a goy and 16 years a Litvak. Perhaps I know both sides of the equation better than most of you.
Honestly, you are making more out of the sexual issues than need be. Personally, even though I am now frei, I greatly prefer the supposedly ‘repressed’ sexuality of the Litvak world to anything I’ve ever experienced in the secular world.
Going OTD is not about sex, people!
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Blackbearfamily – I would love to email you or chat directly – is there any way for me to contact you? You can email me at chaynobody@gmail.com.
Thanks!
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For me sex is only pleasurable and gratifying with the man I love. I have no interest and never have had any interest in just sleeping with a random person. Plus, believe it or not abstinence when he’s not around is fine for me, even over a reasonably long period. Women mostly genuinely are far more interested in long term fulfilling sexual relationships than a fling.
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Insider, if we use my own-mostly secular-life to benchmark, your numbers are low, but keep in mind that one can easily have more partners and a lot less sex. I didn’t have sex until I was 18 almost 19. I’ve gone on dry spells that lasted over a year more than once. However, when I had been with over 20 guys, only one of those 20 had been more than once. I’ve had more than 100, but I’m sure that an FFB counterpart would have had more sex than me since they would have had someone available (assuming the niddah laws weren’t in the way..)
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Sex is overrated…
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You could also be unlucky, born into a secular family (or at least not hassidic), and spend years without ever “getting lucky,” being depressed through high school as the jocks get laid, and even end up single in your 40′s, hanging out at bars realizing that tv’s depiction of the secular life is complete fantasy (and maybe getting lucky once in a blue moon).
I’m pretty sure religious jews have more sex.
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