Chasidish Men Who Cheat
Infedility by dhammza/off
With two big stories in the news of a married man’s sexual misconduct (and worse), one can’t help but reflect on the prevalence of wealthy men of power acting with brazen impropriety. These men are distinguished by their highly public careers and the incredible chutzpah they employ in violating the trust of the women they are married to (let alone their behavior towards the women they are accused of raping, in the case of Strauss-Kahn).
As I ponder the mentality of these men, I can’t help but think about another group of men, a very different group, that “violates the trust of the women they are married to”: Chasidish men who cheat on their wives.
I know a Chasidish man with a wife and seven kids in Williamsburg, who keeps a secret girlfriend in Panama, that he spends three months of every year with. I know a Chasidish man with a wife and three kids in Boro Park, who regularly visits a prostitute. I know many many such stories, both from Chasidish men and women and from the men and women I know who have dated/had sex with them (cheating happens in other parts of the frum world as well, of course, but I’ve seen far more evidence of this happening with Chasidim, for reasons mentioned below). In New York City, it’s almost a stereotype, the Chasidish guy with the prostitute, at the strip club, with the shiksa girlfriend.
I used to judge these men harshly. I was disgusted with their betrayal of their wives, who entered their marriages in good faith and with limited options. I judged the lying, the cheating, the exposing innocent bystanders to serious disease. But the more married, cheating Chasidish men I meet, the more my judgment fades. The more I understand how little choice these men have in who (or if) they marry and the more I understand how total the cost of divorce could be to these men, the more sympathy I have.
For those of us who think cheating is wrong, do we think Chasidish men and women should be given a “free pass” because their marriages are basically forced and the cost of divorce can be astronomical in that world (far more that just financially)?
Printable Version
Free pass? No. Lies and deception are never right.
But is it understandable? Certainly, for both men and women. And for the same reason that cheating is understandable in the rest of the world. It’s human. Add to that the fact that people are thrown in with mates they neither like nor chose on their own, with children on the way before anyone has a chance to even think about their options, with no education about birth control, and the situation is more tragic than anything else.
Like this comment?
4
I would just add that chareidim in general (not just chasidim), are taught at a very young age that girls and women are sex objects and must be covered up (starting at age 6, or prior). I believe that this mentality has HUGE impact on the way these “frum” men view ALL women. Women are there for one thing and one thing only. And why do they have to cover up? BECAUSE MEN CANT CONTROL THEMSELVES!
so put those 2 things together and you have frum men who are obsessed with women and sex.
its a pretty sick way to raise your kids, if you think about it
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
8
Why would any young chassiddish girl want to get married knowing that so many of her male counterparts will be given a “free pass” to cheat on their wives?
Why would parents, knowing full well what is going on around them, marry their kids off before they can understand what marriage is?
When will Rabbis, leaders, and kallah teachers stop pretending this isn’t a huge problem in Boro Park and Williamsburg?
When will people refuse to shop at jewelery stores who brazenly have 2 accounts for their male customers (one for the wife, and one for ???)
Like this comment?
1
ksil – is there any way for me to contact you directly (email maybe?) My email is chaynobody at gmail.com . Thanks.
Like this comment?
1
By its very nature, infidelity requires first that the partners, with full awareness, and full willingness, promise to be committed to each other.
Would anyone seriously expect that this is what is happening when an inexperienced and immature 18-year-old is pressured by his family to marry a girl he has barely spent a few hours talking to?
If there was never any truly sincere claim of fidelity, how can cheating ever really be a betrayal?
Like this comment?
1
— The more I understand how little choice these men have in who (or if) they marry and the more I understand how total the cost of divorce could be to these men, the more sympathy I have. —
The statement quoted above assumes that people cheat because they are in unhappy marriages. That may be that case with women, but it is not the case with men. A man can be in a very happy marriage that he has no desire to get out of but still desire to have sex with other women.
To understand why this would be so, you have to understand why people desire sex. The simple reason is evolution favored this trait, as people who did not desire to have sex took their “no interest in sex gene” out of the gene pool. Natural selection would have favored the passing on of a genetic disposition for men to be interested in having sex with a lot of women over a genetic disposition to be interested in having sex with one woman. This is because a man who has sex with a different woman every day will have more children than a man who has sex with only one woman. Because a woman cannot reproduce in less than nine months, having sex with more men will not cause her genes to be passed on with greater frequency.
Note that the above does not morally justify men cheating. However, it does explain why the assumption men cheat because they are stuck in unhappy marriages is wrong.
Like this comment?
1
Free pass? Yes!
Like this comment?
1
Frankly, I don’t believe there is any good excuse for dishonesty, especially on a massive, constant basis. But I may be mentally abnormal.
Like this comment?
2
Jacob, you’re not abnormal. I’m with you:). At some point, you are responsible for your own destiny. Staying trapped and dishonest serves no one. Least of all, the perpetrator.
As a side note, I found myself in Boro Park at a wedding a few months ago, needing to get back to Williamsburgh. Long story. My husband hasd to take the car back home, from the madding crowd, and I was left with (GASP) the Boro Park/Williamsburgh bus. First time and hopefully the last. If nothing else, at least it served as interesting material.
I was afraid I’d missed the last bus so with great politeness, I inquired of a tall slightly older Chassidic man huddling in a corner. He shirked as if I was vermin, quickly looked away and muttered his response. Well, at least answered, I’ll give him that.
I wanted to say, hey, dude, easy now, you’re not my type, no temptation here. Just who are these guys screwing anyway? No self respecting woman I know is going to cheat with a man dressed like a cross between Ben Franklin and a 17th century Polish noble. And one who may not have showered or teeth brushed in days, to boot. No, the mikvah does not count.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
ARGHH! Mistake alert! Please delete above line and insert this correction: “My husband had to take the car back home, Far From the Madding crowd, and I was left with (GASP) the Boro Park/Williamsburgh bus.”
Like this comment?
1
IntellectualRebel, you should really delete the first half of your name; it fools no one.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
Without minimizing the troubled marriages some young couples find themselves in today, for the sake of the newly engaged couples and their parents, I think it would be helpful to focus on the future.
If parents want to marry their kids off at such a young age, the least they should do is have them take a couples counseling or coaching course before marriage.
Parents who neglect to make sure their children have the tools to create a successful marriage, are doing their children a disservice.
It is unfair to send two kids down the road of marriage without a road map.
Like this comment?
2
“IntellectualRebel, you should really delete the first half of your name; it fools no one”
Nah, I’ll keep the first half. Rather perhaps I should delete the second half. Can I be called a Rebel if I’ve been doing this for so long? More like Going Rogue. Nah, that sounds too much like Sarah Palin. Blech.
Like this comment?
2
Do women who want a boyfriend on the side get the same understanding?
Not frickin’ hardly
Like this comment?
2
Todd, exactly. FreiFem, you make a compelling case for the stifling trap these men find themselves confined in, but hey, isn’t it the men who pass all these decrees in the first place? I cannot condone it. They have so much to lose if they leave so stay and wear a mask? Nope, no free pass here, sorry.
Like this comment?
1
I listen to women who I’m not married to singing and see them showing elbows, bare legs, barely covered boobs, makeup, and sometimes completely naked.
I grew up playing with girls I wasn’t related to.
When I was a teenager I went to mixed-sex parties
I sit at tables with women I’m not related to, shake their hands and sometimes hug them.
I am occasionally in rooms alone with them.
I don’t have Daas Torah.
I don’t have the protection of being a learner, surrounded by holiness.
I am an observant Jew, in the sense that I observe Orthodoxy from a safe distance and run when I see it getting too close
Somehow I’ve never cheated on my wife.
I’ve never hired a prostitute.
I’ve never been in a strip club.
I don’t even molest little boys in the mikveh like the rabbis and rosh yeshivot who get into the news.
How can this be? Why am I not rutting like a crazed beast and propositioning anything with a vagina that comes within earshot? Maybe it’s because I had an upbringing that permitted normal psycho-sexual development.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
12
Todd, well done! I heard a great line on NPR last week. It was reaction to the report that was released about the pedophilia scandal in the Catholic Church. A man, now grown, gone on to become a priest, himself had been abused in the church as a boy. He spoken openly of his reaction. He noted the attitude among those with power was, “I work for God. I can do whatever I want.”
Sadly, I see parallels in the Chassidic community with men who wield a great deal of power over subordinates, those who are powerless, namely women and children. “I work for God, I can do whatever I want.” See no evil, hear no evil. As long as secret, in the dark, it didn’t happen, right?
It’s that hubris, that mask. I spend my time banning strawberries because there may be microscopic bugs embedded, I wear vasah zaken on Shabbos, I check to make sure women wear seams in their stockings, and in my private moments, I do whatever the hell I want. It’s that disconnect that I find so incredibly disturbing. It is hubris at its sickest. “I work for God, I can do whatever I want.”
Like this comment?
3
J, sometimes the old sayings are the best. “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” When you speak with the voice and authority of God Himself to your cultists you’re pretty powerful.
Like this comment?
1
J, comparing hasidim to celibate catholic priest without any supporting evidence is rather vile to put it mildly. That’s not to say there aint a problem, there is, but not on that scale without evidence.
Like this comment?
2
Henry, why is it “rather vile to put it mildly”. We know the Chasidim not only tolerate but actively defend child molesters. They beatify the rapists and ruining the lives of any victims brave enough to come forward as well as their families.
Like this comment?
3
That’s rubbish. They do not trust the authorities, fair, and they protect abusers from prosecution. But they do not beatify molesters.
They do SHUN *known* molesters too, when they are not in denial. And yes, denial is hurtful to victims and their families. I repeat there is a problem with paedophilia denial, but I do not believe that there is a greater occurrence of either rape or molestation amongst Haredi jews than there is amongst any other group of people elsewhere. There is absolutely no evidence to support your baseless claim.
The terrible problem of hasidic men who rape women because they wield power over them? WTF are you talking about?
And sorry to rain on your parade of anything hateful goes.
Like this comment?
2
Henry, a friend just emailed me your comment, asking if I’d written it. Well, apparently, I haven’t, nor have I read this post or comment thread. Frankly, after reading your comment, I’m not interested in reading the rest of this. But I do want to tell you this, and of course, you can take or leave my advice. Don’t bother trying to write any sort of truth on this web site, if your truth connotes Hasidim positively (or neutrally, for that matter). This site has become another Footsteps. Begun with noble intentions, they have both degenerated into places for angry, bitter losers with zero intellectual honesty. As long as a comment or post bashes the frum, there will be a host of commenters cheering it on, regardless of its veracity. I have long given up checking in with this blog. which is a pity, because there had been some good writers here.
Like this comment?
3
Simply not true, Henry. Every time a baby raper, airplane groper, whoremonger or little-boy fucker is exposed the fumma rush to turn him into a saint.
“I know him personally. He’d never do anything like that.”
“He’s a real tzaddik.”
“He’s a true Torah scholar.”
“Nobody who gives that much to charity could do that.”
You know the drill. If you claim it isn’t absolutely routine you’re a damned liar.
As far as “shunning the molesters” you are living in some sort of bizarre fantasy world. They hold fricking banquets for them if they’re rabbis. They don’t say “Daven somewhere else.” They don’t refuse to do business with them or deny their children marriages. Are they ever put in cherem? Do posters appear in Williamsburg saying “They prey on little children. Do not speak to them.”
All of these happen to victims’ families if they dare speak out.
Like this comment?
4
R., by definition the Chassidishe have no intellectual honesty. They believe what they are told to believe with a true fanatic’s fervor. They reject science, history, logic and even older versions of their own doctrine. If dogma disagrees with plain, simple fact the facts must be rejected. If Chazal say the Earth is flat, the Sun goes behind a dome at night, mice are spontaneously generated from mud and thought comes from the kidneys and heart instead of the brain they MUST perforce believe it.
People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, much less half-ton bunker busters. So get off your high horse.
Like this comment?
1
Veganovich, I’d suggest you read more widely on the subject. The simplistic prejudices of the “evolutionary psychologists” consist mostly of them saying “I really wish the world revolved around what I want” and then rationalizing why it’s the Will of Nature.
The real science – the sort that involves actual data and hard work – paints a much different story. I’d like to suggest a few excellent books…
Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá
The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond who also wrote “Why is Sex Fun?”
Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love by Helen Fisher
Like this comment?
1
>As far as “shunning the molesters” you are living in some sort of bizarre fantasy world.
I said, that where haredim think there is indeed no denying the fact that a alleged perpetrator is an abuser they are shunned. I unlike you, can cite examples where exactly that occurred within haredidom by Shmuel Wosner and other Rabbis of his calibre. I agree that denial is the more common response, and that that is a huge and very serious problem, but that does not mean that they beatify those they know to be molesters.
Halacha as ridiculous as it is, does not believe in a flat earth. It acknowledges modern biology in some instances, including the rejection of spontaneous generation (in the case of intestinal fish worms for example) if only lechumrah, so no, there is no obligation to believe the examples you have just cited. So there, another hyperbolic claim of yours rejected.
Show me the evidence for a greater occurrence of the rape of women by men within the OJ community or of any sex crime for that matter, as per your claims, instead of calling me a liar.
Your comment would make some Simon Wiesenthal list for anti-semitic slurs were they issued by a non Jew. Shame on you.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
Whoa, Henry, hold your horses! I did NOT say Chassidish men are just like Catholic celibate priests who molest little boys. Maybe I can’t blame you. Since I drew a parallel, I can see where you’d leave with that conclusion. It’s that line, “I work for God. I can do whatever I want” that I found striking because there are eerie similarities.
Hold on. I want to flesh this out but I have two major meetings tonight and already severely backed up with my preparation. I just wanted to begin the dialogue so you don’t think I vanished.
Back at you tomorrow on this. Stay tuned.
Like this comment?
1
Just how much can self-absorbed, selfish, and self-justifying people pat themselves (and each other) on the back to excuse selfish, self-absorbed, and destructive behavior? Apparently, enough to convince themselves that adultery is no longer deeply depraved and immoral.
Bemoan the poor 18 and 19 year old bridgegrooms all you like, the fact remains that most of them enter into their marriages in good faith. And the ones who don’t, are just plain irresponsible jerks, because, well, tricking an innocent girl into a failed marriage from the get go is an irresponsible and jerky thing to do, mildly put. Western society may talk out of one side of its mouth when it says that 18 is too young for marriage, but if 18 is old enough to vote, old enough to leave school, old enough to legally work in any profession (except be president of the US), old enough to marry without parental consent, old enough to be judged as an adult, old enough to buy cigarettes and porn, and in some countries, old enough to buy your own alcohol, that’s saying that 18 is old enough to have reasonably good judgment and definitely social responsibility.
Arranged marriages are common in parts of the world, for example, in Muslim, Asian, and Indian societies. These societies also have very high rates of male infidelity. The correlation? It is societies where men see women as objects or as property or at the most as second-class citizens that men have no problem cheating on their wives. It is almost considered acceptable. The frum world might suffer from the exact same disease, but why is it that ‘aufgeklerte’ or no-long-frum people, who should be the first ones calling for the respect of women, are the ones perpetrating or excusing this behavior? For shame!
Were the situation reversed, that a man became frum, would his sexual infidelities (because he’s suddenly interested in frum women!) be endorsed or even excused? Do only the no-longer-religious or semi-quasi-i’m-frum-when-it-suits-me people get a free pass? If someone’s spouse suffers an injury or disfigurement, does the other spouse also get a free pass? What about if my spouse throws his socks short of the hamper every second day?
The total cost of divorce doesn’t matter. Leeching off a community is just that, leeching. We have a great word for it. Chazer. You don’t want to live in it, you only care about yourself, and you don’t care about others around you, leave! Whose heart is supposed to be bleeding purple jelly over the financial losses to a father and husband who doesn’t care about hurting his own family to suit his own scrotum? And here we thought that being an adult is about taking responsibility for one’s actions, and accepting the consequences. It turns out though, that prostitutes and mistresses are a lot more fun than consequences. Boo hoo hoo.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
6
Skeleton
Bemoan the poor 18 and 19 year old bridgegrooms all you like, the fact remains that most of them enter into their marriages in good faith.
How do you know that? Is it logical to say that a boy and girl who met for 30 minutes know what kind of mate they’re getting? Didn’t you understand FriFams point that these men had nothing in their life before, they were sexually oppressed, and then, after all their teenage years being oppressed they got something shoved down their path abruptly? which part didn’t you understand? Do you know what that feels like for a man after realizing what has been done do him? The zest and lust of youth stolen and robbed from him? I know you’re a woman and all woman get riled up quickly on this topic of how unfaaiirr it is to cheat, how rude to teat woman like sex objects etc etc, but stop and think for a second from the male’s point of view, come on, use your logic a bit, does this system make sense? don’t YOU understand these men???
Percentage wise, how many couples do you estimate are a good/perfect match by Chasidim?
Like this comment?
3
Skeleton — I’m surprised at you. FreiFem’s piece was not, as I read it, about those who are no longer frum, but about the hundreds of Chasidish men who in all other respects are full members of the community. Your judgements, which seem directed towards readers and writers on this site, seem misplaced.
I don’t know whom you’re calling “self-absorbed, selfish, and self-justifying,” but since this is in response to FreFem’s post, it seems logical that you’re directing it at her. That, however, is quite illogical. She was hardly saying she condones it, only that she has found a glimmer of understanding.
I would also suggest that her point doesn’t only apply to men. I know plenty of chasidish women who cheat on their husbands. They too are in unfortunate situations. This isn’t to say that cheating is right, only that when people have their lives chosen for them, before they can fully understand the consequences of going along with it, then this is going to be the natural outcome.
Also, your points about other traditional societies prove the exact opposite of your case. Where young people have their mates chosen for them at such young ages (and — crucially — the societies they live in make it difficult to get out of the marriage), the relationship will suffer in such a way that infidelity will be common. It isn’t (necessarily) disrespect for women — or men, if it’s a woman cheating. It’s disrespect for a bond that wasn’t carefully and consciously chosen.
Your point about 18 being old enough for all those things is simply irrelevant. If you showed me a society in which 18-year-olds choose their own mates, perform the courting rituals of their liking, and then settle down for a long and happy marriage, then you’d have a point, but a) you didn’t do that. b) That’s not what Chasidish 18-year-olds are doing. The question isn’t whether they’re able to make decisions, only whether they actually exercise that ability when it comes to a shidduch. Young chasidish brides and grooms trust their parents and religious leaders to guide them; you might consider that an admirable quality but let’s not delude ourselves into thinking these are carefully considered decisions.
Like this comment?
3
You won’t get me to defend the shidduch system, which I think sucks through a straw. But reread my post, please, before repeating the same blather the article posits.
How do you know that?
I am no stranger; kenst mich nisht farkoifen kein lukshen. Bochurim, the kind you’re empathizing with, generally fall into two categories. Those who are ignorant, naive, and innocent, and are led to the chuppah like sheep to the slaughter. The fact that they’re ignorant and naive does NOT negate the fact that they’re entering the marriage in good faith. Ai, their faith changes a little bit down the road. Nu, so be a man and suck it up. Divorce and get what you want – but pay for it. Then there are the bochurim who are neither ignorant nor naive, but they are two-faced and/or hypocrites. They pretend to be interested in all the chassidishe shidduchim of cute girls that are redt for them. They tell their parents they want a cute, “with-it” chassidishe girl, when deep down they’d prefer a girl in fishnets, but they’re just too darn preoccupied with their reputations and shidduch chances to be honest about it. Then they marry the cute, with-it chassidishe girl, and after a little bit their interest wanes. And nebach, these guys are such victims…they got bamboozled into marriage.
which part didn’t you understand?
The part where personal responsibility is no longer a requirement. Will Armani give you a free suit? Will Blahnik give you free shoes? Why in thunder should your wife give you a free pass? Why should anyone else, for that matter?
I know you’re a woman and all woman get riled up quickly on this topic of how unfaaiirr it is to cheat, how rude to teat woman like sex objects etc etc,
Y’know, I have no idea why we get riled up. Really. I can’t understand why we don’t like being cheated on. At all.
use your logic a bit, does this system make sense? don’t YOU understand these men???
No. And No.
Do two wrongs make a right?
Percentage wise, how many couples do you estimate are a good/perfect match by Chasidim?
Not too many. But judging by the divorce rates in secular society, not too many there either. Perfect matches are hard to come by, period. This is not to say that the shidduch system isn’t a pile of excrement, but don’t try to convince me, or yourself, that nirvana exists elsewhere.
Like this comment?
2
FreiFem’s piece was not, as I read it, about those who are no longer frum, but about the hundreds of Chasidish men who in all other respects are full members of the community.
Plenty are on the fringes in other ways, and many still wear the gear and the hair but otherwise they’re not there. And hey, I never said selfishprickism isn’t common among chassidishe men. Merely, that people of integrity in the community will be disgusted by these people, whereas apparently people who are no longer frum seem to find them much more palatable, and excuse their pathetic beings.
I don’t know whom you’re calling “self-absorbed, selfish, and self-justifying,” but since this is in response to FreFem’s post, it seems logical that you’re directing it at her. That, however, is quite illogical.
Your interpretation is quite illogial. I have no idea who FreiFem is, and have no reason to attack her. My pejoratives were clearly addressed to those who engage in this behavior and self-congratulate and excuse themselves.
I would also suggest that her point doesn’t only apply to men. I know plenty of chasidish women who cheat on their husbands. They too are in unfortunate situations. They too, are irresponsible and selfish. Everything I said about one gender can be equally applied to the other. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Also, your points about other traditional societies prove the exact opposite of your case. Where young people have their mates chosen for them at such young ages (and — crucially — the societies they live in make it difficult to get out of the marriage), the relationship will suffer in such a way that infidelity will be common. It isn’t (necessarily) disrespect for women — or men, if it’s a woman cheating. It’s disrespect for a bond that wasn’t carefully and consciously chosen.
Errr, no. You’re displaying astounding ignorance in sociology, anthropology and history. Prostitution is acceptable in those societies because men wield so much power over women. Men can dump and divorce their wives with great ease, although the women cannot. Women do not commonly cheat in these societies, as you must surely very well know, because they are not given a fraction of the latitude men are. It is not incompatibility or dissatisfaction within marriage that drives the infidelity, it’s long-seated cultural and religious attitudes towards women.
Like this comment?
2
“Errr, no. You’re displaying astounding ignorance in sociology, anthropology and history.”
Umm, or maybe just a lack of affinity for information-gathering via Wikipedia. Then again, I make no claims to expertise in those fields, so whatever ignorance I may or may not have should be astoundingly unastounding.
“Prostitution is acceptable in those societies because men wield so much power over women. Men can dump and divorce their wives with great ease, although the women cannot. Women do not commonly cheat in these societies, as you must surely very well know, because they are not given a fraction of the latitude men are. It is not incompatibility or dissatisfaction within marriage that drives the infidelity, it’s long-seated cultural and religious attitudes towards women.”
Whether or not these things are true, one might say it’s “astounding” that you would issue pronouncements about societies and cultures without the slightest evidence for them and with only self-declared expertise. My argument was only that you haven’t reinforced your point about Chasidish men. You pointed to a correlation without substantiating it, and I provided a possible alternative correlation. Instead of pointing to relevant data and the studies done to analyze them (which, for all I know, do not exist), you issue a sophomoric response that yours are the correct pronouncements and all must accept them. Otherwise, of course, they are ignorant.
If those are your methods, well, forgive me, but I find such conversation tedious.
So a very good day to you, madam.
Like this comment?
1
From what I see,it takes an awful lot of chitzpah for a teenage kid,boy or girl,to say ` Include me out of this shidduch`. They don`t have nearly the strength or maturity. Of course,that means they aren`t ready for mariage,either. So many of them hide in their tallis,looking around to see if their Tatte is coming to belt them. At least ,that`s how they seem.
Cheating? Look at the news. Tiger woods, John Edwards, Gingrich. The line forms over there,folks. Men cheat because they have the time and money. And not enough willpower,in most cases. Tiger`s wife is not bad looking. It has little,if anything to do with looks,and more to do with thrill seeking.
Like this comment?
2
Divorce is not always good. You should continually work out first the problems in your marriage before settling into divorce. In asian countries, divorce is almost completely unheard of for the reason that they have lots of patience on their marriage. `:.`’
Like this comment?
1