Advice Column
It’s All Kosher (No. 11): Escaping Fatherhood
Dear Posek:
I got married when I was 19, and got divorced 6 months later. In that short time, we managed to make a baby boy. I left the Chasidish world soon after. I’m now 23 and my son is 3. I’ve seen him a few times over the years but I don’t feel like his father. I know this sounds horrible but I would rather not be in his life. I feel like I’m a child myself, and every time I see him there’s always some kind of problem (like last time, his mother got angry that I picked him up wearing a small leather yarmulke instead of the big velvet one). I also feel like I need to figure out my life for myself first. Am I being selfish? (I don’t think I am, but people say that I am and I wonder if they’re right.)
(Bad) Dad
Dear BD:
People say you’re selfish. That’s the crux of your problem. Are they right, you now ask? You figured out everything else: your child, your ex-wife, your family, your chassidish community and your transition out of it… but The People are saying things you don’t like to hear. You see, it’s not about caring for your child, it’s all about caring about what people say. “Are they right or am I right?” is your pressing question. Your problem, that you are being judged by others in the case of The People vs. You, has not been addressed by the divorce courts (surely it should have been), so you ask the Posek to assuage your feelings of guilt.
It’s hardly a question that I can answer without bias. I am – you may be surprised to learn – also of The People. As such, I am also occasionally guilty of reacting strongly when a regular twenty-something guy turns out to be the willfully estranged father of a three year old boy with a skullcap bigger than a baseball cap and little side curls stiff with Dippity-Do.
“Do you see your kid?” the interrogation would begin. “Why not, what’s this, why are you being selfish?”
The People are committing the usual crime of being presumptuous. It’s what people do. You just have to grow up, toughen up and accept that.
One thing you can do in order to deflect The People’s criticism is to stop mulling over how valid their opinions are and try to ignore them. Remember that judgment comes from a place of ignorance, not moral superiority. It’s up to you to remind yourself that your situation is unique and that it’s hard for others to understand it. People don’t know the place you come from, even when they think they do. They don’t understand and they judge you based on what’s right and wrong in their own situation.
I would also encourage you to remember why you left your child. In times of doubt, remind yourself what led to the pregnancy and to the divorce. You’ll remember that at your age and in your position, this was probably the best course of action. The reality is that your situation is unusual, since you became a father not by independently choosing it, but by being instructed by a looming rabbi to “be fruitful and multiply.” You didn’t choose to become a father and you didn’t choose not to stay in your child’s life. The Chasidic community has made those choices for you. I am also well aware of the powerful sway mothers have in family courts as well as the emotional manipulation often wielded against young fathers in order to lock them out of their children’s lives.
You were out of your child’s life before he was born. With that, your title as the child’s father is more legal than actual. I strongly believe fathers are made of emotional ties, not biological ones. Your child is growing up in a society in which he is taught explicitly not to be able to tolerate diversity, the same diversity that you, his biological father, now represent. It’s hard to call such an arrangement a meaningful relationship with the child, the kind of relationship that fatherhood is made of. The Chasidic system is also quick to replace stray fathers with new ones through remarriage. The child is taught to accept a step-father as de facto father.
You sign yourself “dad,” but I’m not very sure you are one. It would be good if you could stay involved to some degree, even if only as an uncle-type figure, but that too could be challenging. For a Chasidic boy living in a cloistered environment, such a “visitor” could upset the child’s world. The emotional expressiveness among Chasidic children is also very contained and they often have a harder time dealing with chaotic feelings. Visits with non-custodial fathers are often court ordered, and the custodial parent might emphatically discourage bonding with the absent parent.
Whatever degree of contact you choose to maintain, always strive to be a good role model in the child’s life, even if you are not the father figure. Start by making peace with your choices and having confidence in them. Start by looking to yourself and those you trust for guidance, and stop looking for approval from others. That’s what you set out to do!
The People you meet won’t understand the sociological factors of being a Chasidic parent. Maybe they are right and you are selfish to have split from your young pregnant wife to go find yourself. Maybe selfish, but it was the best you could do. And there is nothing The People can do about it.
So gavel to desk, I say you win. But it’s up to you to recognize that my vote isn’t what matters.
Signed,
Posek
Printable Version
A father is crucial to a childs upbringing. I could never imagine that I would agree that there is an instance where a father should remove himself from a childs life. But with great sadness I have to agree that this is such an instance. It is probably better for all concerned to lead separate lives.
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Well, the thing that a decent human being who fathered a child should do – jewish or not -: pay child support until the child is adult and can stand on its own feet.
It’s as simple as that.
Now as far as contact is concerned: if they do not whish to have you in his life, you might forgo that. But KEEP PAYING:
and if you did not pay up to now: START PAYING
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omg- seriously??? I am a fairly non- judgemental person , but come on!
Sorry- you are not a kid. You may feel like one- but you are not. You fathered a child. Circumstances don’t matter now- because you MADE that child. What if that child was you- and your father disappeared for whatever the reason? YOu would HATE that man- you would never make peace with the abandonment . SO guess what ? Grow a pair. Step up to the plate . You fathered a child. You are 23- And he will need you.
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Lissa, remind me again, did you say you were NOT a judgmental person?
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I agree with Lissa. You are not a child. You are a 23 year old man. You have a child and a child needs his father. Would you like to always wonder why your father left you? That your father needed to “find himself” instead of trying his hardest to be a father to a young child who needs him? Kids are understanding and your child will be forgiving of your struggles. But he can’t if he never sees you. You should try to get joint custody of your child if you don’t agree with the way he is being raised. But you don’t want to do the right thing. You want someone to say “screw the kid! go live your life and have fun.” There is nothing wrong with being judgmental about someone who abandons his child.
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It is not about the father leaving, it is about the mother and her community not allowing him to be a father in any normal way. If he pushes himself into the stilted strained limited quasi father role that the mother and her community permit him too it will simply hurt the child more then benefit the child.
It is more likely that the child, as a result of his community mores, will resent the father as he grows up for being “wierd” a “heretic” with all the stigma that stems from having a “different” father. Better to let them live separete lives. As Posek points out, the community will select a new father for the child and he will live his life. It is better for the child in this unfortunet situation.
THat being said. My heart bleeds for the father. He claims to feel little attachement but I suspect that is a mechanism for dealing with this awful situation. THe alternative would be to live a life he obviosely could not bear once he became an adult.
What a awful situation. I can relate; the community leaned on my rebellious 18 year old brother to marry his teenage girl friend. Criminal.
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This is not normal. Unpoius again shows it’s true colors by encouraging people to leave their children. The man had no right to get divorced.! Even before the baby was born!! You Unpouis should know that even the goyim understand marriage means “to death do us part”!! This questioner was probably a bum. He wanted his freedom and a good life. Now the kid has to grow up knowing his father is a shaigets.
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Whether you were too young or not (you were) and whether you wanted it or not doesn’t matter. The one non-negotiable test of manhood is the taking care of your children.
You are a father. Man the hell up and be one.
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“I strongly believe fathers are made of emotional ties, not biological ones.”
This is the crux of the machlokes, as far as I can see, whether the fact that he contributed the sperm to make his child , obligates him to have a relationship with his child. I wonder what you guys would say about a sperm bank, does every “father” need to chase after the child which was created from their sperm (if it was theoretically possible)?
The whole kid or adult thing seems irrelevant to me.
I do think what is also important as mentioned by the article and comments , is what is considered forced to have a child , and what is a persons responsibility to that child that they were forced to have? It is begining to sound similar to the , no abortion , abortion if rape , or always abortion debate.
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Velvel — Good points. I also think it’s important to consider the degrees to which the ex-wife (and those around her) are trying to prevent a meaningful and healthy relationship with the child.
I think pretty much everyone agrees strongly that a child needs his/her father, and that the role is tremendously important for the child’s healthy development. But I do wonder about those who are so quick to judge. Can you imagine what it’s like to fight tooth and nail to maintain a relationship with your child, with the child’s mother (and those advising her) actively trying to keep you at a distance? Can yo imagine the pain of having your child refuse to see or speak to you because he/she is being told that you are a “goy” and a “shaygetz”?
I know plenty of parents, both mothers and fathers, who, after years of fighting became so emotionally beat that it took years to overcome the intense psychological trauma, the humiliating defeats of being denied — by judges, rabbis, family members, and custodial parents — the right to a meaningful relationship with their children. Who went from loving and dedicated parents to “visitors” — only grudgingly tolerated. I know of fathers AND mothers who, DECADES LATER, still show the deep scars of those battles, and many say they regret their efforts. It destroyed their own lives and did their children no good at all. And as some readers might know, I’ve had my personal experiences with this as well.
Granted, this young man doesn’t say to what degree he’s being kept away. But we all know the patterns, and chances are that those in his child’s life are making things deliberately difficult. So I for one am withholding judgment.
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ignore this erev rav, remember psachim 49b: “ki hem sheketz vchu..”
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Dad, first and foremost, leave the guilt trip out of the equation and suspend the self judging. You left the chasidic lifestyle, not because you had a choice, but because you couldn’t live it any longer. Obviously, you got married for all the wrong reasons (parents or peer pressure) to someone you have nothing in common with, and if you would have stayed in the community and suffered, everyone around you would have been miserable, including your child.
Having said that, your child is still your flesh and blood and is completely innocent here. So you need to think what’s best for him. In my humble opinion, you should give him the space to grow up in as healthy an environment as possible. Your child needs to feel safe in his environment to grow up mentally fit, so don’t confuse him too much. If you decide to stay in his life, give him plenty of love and don’t tell him bad things about his mother or the community he is growing up in (leave that for when he’s grown enough to handle it). If not, don’t go around feeling guilty to the point of destryoing your life, just be prepared that down the line he may look you up and try to reconnect with you.
Finally, work on yourself. Find your spritiual self, what is it your legacy will be. Be it secular humanism, Buddhism, Breslav, or whatever gives you internal peace. Just don’t be bitter on life.
Disclaimer: This is a humble, non-judgemental opinion based on observations and common sense. Whatever decision you make, I’m sure it will be the right one.
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You may not entirely have chosen to father a child- but you did. It isn’t the child’s fault he was conceived and born, and in any case, he should never have to suffer the consequences of someone else’s mistake (if you can call it that). I am a mother, not a father, so I can’t speak as a father, but that was what caused me to eventually have sympathy for my own second child when I found out- with much dismay- that she was on the way and we were flat broke.
It’s not your fault the prominent people in your child’s life are insensitive and narrow. Whether sympathy for your own child can be a basis for a relationship his mother and other relatives make difficult, is another question, as is to what extent you play along in order to be able to see your child. But I definitely recommend not worrying about what they think of YOU.
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Shulem thanks. After reading your comment and others, I am beginning to fall on the side of holding up on contact with the child at least for now. I don’t think it is worth the pain to the dad and the confusion to the child. Also morally I don’t think I can hold the dad accountable for the child , at least not to the extent of forcing him to have contact with his child.
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Well, I just wanted to add, that yes, please definitely stop caring about what others say about you. Try to focus on only your own feelings about this child. And then go only with your very own gut instinct about this. The one thing to keep in mind is that regardless of what you do, this is a situation for the rest of your life, as long as that child lives, things could come up. Whether it would be his rejection of you, or his seeking you out. So it’s important to act in a way that fully respects your feelings, so that you can own up to that no matter what further down the road. At least you ‘ll be able to know you were being honest with yourself and where you are at at this point in your life.
With regards to the child, perhaps looking at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs will help you see in black and white if your child currently is taken care of in his living situation with his mother and other relatives, or if there’s something you could curently add to his quality of life, or whether you feel at peace with letting him be where he is. http://www.businessballs.com/images/maslow_hierarchy.htm
Wishing you all the best.
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You are what you feel you are. If you feel you are not the father, then pay your child support and walk away.
But if you feel you are the father, then go into family court and get court ordered visitation as well as support. The court will not order religious observance, but will order visitation. Then enjoy your visitation.
Your ex is just jerking you around. Don’t let her do it.
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Dirt Lawyer that is probably the most scary klall that I have ever heard.
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Velvel; Why is this scary?
Visitation and support are civil matters. A Rebbe has no way of enforcing either, except through some kind of religious prohibition that has no force of civil law.
“Dad” has already said he has no interest in interacting with the child. I think this is morally wrong, but I have no way of enforcing any interaction with the child. And neither has a Rebbe. But a court does have a way of enforcing support. So let it. That is at least a legal resolution, and the least that can be done.
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This is a tough one! I don’t think I have an answer? But perhaps I can add some perspective. I am sure many of you have had a similar experience to mine. When I went OTD at the age of 18, my father would cross the street when he saw me approaching. If we were both present as invited guests at a mutual friends home he would leave. I never did ask him why, but I presume he was ashamed to be seen with me, and to acknowledge me as his son in front of others. To this day there are many people who recognize my family name when they meet me, but have never heard of me. The hurt has not gone away. Like I said I don’t think I can answer your question, but do these experiences perhaps inform our opinions on the role of a father, and if so what lessons if any are we to learn from our own experiences?
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Dirtlawyer — I don’t know what kind of “lawyer” you are, but you have surprisingly simplistic views on how family court works. It’s far from cut and dry.
Religion does play a role in roundabout ways. One of them is the fact that the custodial parent has final say on the child’s religious upbringing, and she can argue that the father jeopardizes that with his behavior. It’s unlikely the court will deny *all* visitation, but they *are* receptive to arguments that the child’s lifestyle be respected, and the father abide by certain rules towards that end.
Then there are all the religious/ideological arguments couched in terms made palatable to a secular court: the parent is psychologically disturbed; the child doesn’t want to see him; his contact with the child causes emotional stress, etc. etc. In my experience (and what I’ve heard from many others), the courts definitely consider these factors and take them very seriously. And it’s quite easy to get frum “professionals” to testify to such claims, which the court has no choice but to take seriously.
Additionally, whenever you speak of court, you’re talking about the potential for many thousands of dollars in legal fees. For a 23-year-old kid still trying to find his footing in the world, very likely cut off from his family and other sources of emotional/financial/material support, scared shitless when facing a judge b/c he has no idea what his options are and how to argue for them, fighting for his rights becomes well nigh impossible.
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I am retired. I tried many family matters in court. Civil courts simply don’t get mixed up in religious matters (see the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution).
As long as the father doesn’t slander the child’s or mother’s lifestyle there won’t be a problem.
As to representation, there is pro bono representation available in matters such as this one.
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“You are what you feel you are.” Sorry Dirtlawyer maybe I wasn’t clear but that was the klall that I was referring too. I mean doesn’t your klall allow any parent to drop off any child at any time, just simply by “feeling” they are not the parent. Wouldn’t this lead to the Roman idea of dropping off imperfect babies in a basket on a hill?
Also to figure out whether someone feels like the parent would involve a major physiological chakirah.
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23 years old IS NOT a KId, You are a LEGAL ADULT at 18.
Old enough to Procreate Old enough to Pay for it.
This is NOT a chassidic ideal, ITS THE LAW. Post this same letter on ivillage or some other woman based website, There will be NO SYMPATHY
There is no sympathy in the US for DEADBEAT DADS which this mans wants to be.
My advice to this “kid” is to MAN UP and be a FATHER.
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iApikoires , I love your approach.
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Anonymous — First of all, why are you yelling?
Second — where did this become an issue of child support? The question is one of visitation.
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Anonymous would you say a 5-17 year old girls is Old enough to Procreate Old enough to Pay for it. What if she was raped , or forced into marriage, you would expect the lets say 8 or 12 year old to raise the child , skip school etc?
By the way, caps in general makes the your comment seem more trivial. As I think Reb Chayim once said, I used to scream and wave my hands whilst teaching, but then I realized that my students were hearing the tone of my voice and the hand motions more then the concepts I was saying.
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Velvel; my klal is limited to the facts I am dealing with. You can’t force a father to visit his child. If he doesn’t, it is unfortunate, but you still can’t force visitation.
But you can’t permit the mother to withold visitation absent some pretty bad behavior on the part of the father. I don’t see that here.
Visitation is still a civil matter, enforceable in a civil court.
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Ok , Dirtlawyer after the clarification I hear your point and think its logical ,but I don’t know enough about the legal issue to state an opinion.
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Velvel — 5-17 is not legally an adult. That matters. But again, I don’t think the issue here should be child support. The shrill screeching of those who want to make it that notwithstanding.
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Shulem you are right. Out of interest why do you think visitation should be the issue as opposed to child support, just because that is the topic or is it something more?
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And it really doesn’t matter what your child’s mother and “The Community” say or how they try to keep you from having a relationship with your child. You have rights under the law. Exercise them.
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Child support is, in the right fora, a fine issue to have a discussion about. But in this case, it seems to have been raised as a tactic — to digress from the actual issue. I don’t think anyone here argues that a father has to do anything but fulfill his legal obligations. If for no other reason than he’ll end up in jail if he doesn’t.
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Depends how you understand the statement “escaping fatherhood”.
To me, escaping fatherhood would include escaping child support payments.
As I said, I can understand that there could be situations where it might seem preferrable to cease visitation. By the way, I advise strongly against enforcing visitation by court or police. But there is no valid reason for stopping paying child support.
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“By the way, I advise strongly against enforcing visitation by court or police.”
Why is that?
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I am from Europe. I am appalled at what divorcees do to their children in the US. let me give you this example:
child wants to go to camping-trip with mother on father’s weekend. Father forces her to come and see him. She complies. During father’s visiting time she goes to see a friend living near father. She wants to spend the night at her (girl) friend’s place. Father comes with the police to collect her.
That’s appalling to me. What’s even more appalling is that most divorced fathers and stepmothers think that this is the right thing to do.
I think you cannot solve family problems via the court system. The way it is handled in the US just seems severely abusive to me.
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Soso — If the non-custodial parent feels a need to involve the courts, then obviously something’s wrong. What if the non-custodial parent (the father OR the mother) comes to collect the child for visitation but the custodial parent refuses to let the child go. How is that to be dealt with if not in the courts?
What if the custodial parent is actively trying to turn the child against the “visiting” parent? This happens all the time (especially when the non-custodial parent is OTD) — and it is absolutely appalling. Parental alienation is a huge problem in divorces, where ordinarily good people do really bad things out of bitterness and spite. The courts are the only recourse in such cases.
As for your example: It betrays an astonishing lack of understanding of good parenting practices. If it’s the father’s weekend, then no, the child should absolutely NOT go camping with the mother. And the child should NOT spend the night at a friend’s place. Non-custodial parents often have extremely little time to bond with their children, and the little time that they have should be absolutely respected.
Divorce situations can often be very complicated, and there’s no doubt it can affect the children very badly. And that’s why divorced parents need to be mature about it. It’s unfortunate when these things are dragged into court, but often they’re already IN court to begin with. It’s usually a court that decides the initial custody and visitation arrangement.
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You see, this is exactely what I meant: there is a huge gap between US mentality and my own in this respect. The fact that you also applaud the decision to go with the police to collect the child proves it.
Do you really think that sending the police to bring your child to your home by force will help you bond with this same child? Just one ounce of common sense, please…
I feel that in the US non-custodial parents (or parents in general) have a strong feeling of entitlement as far as the children are concerned: “I have the RIGHT to see MY child” “It is NOT FAIR if the child spends 4 days per week with the mother and only 3 with the father”.
It is true that divorce leaves many bitter feelings, feelings of injustice, feelings of deprivation. But going to court to fight for 1 more day with the child or bringing the child home with the police just makes more bitter feelings, on the side of the child. It is per se counter-productive and quite abusive towards the child who is constantly placed in a double-bind. Often, parents forget purely practical consideration over their fighting, the court-ordered schedules, etc.
In my view, parents do not have entitlements towards the children, but first and foremost obligations and they should try to fullfill those obligations as well as they can. Considerations of “why do I get less of child” do not have any place in this.
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“It’s usually a court that decides the initial custody and visitation arrangement.”
Over here, divorced parents get a chance to make a custody and visitation agreement, and then they have to stick with it.
In the US, I heard that parents go to court permanently to CHANGE the arrangement they agreed about, and the judges go along with it. That’s one part of court activity I would abolish.
Second, it might to seem unfair to you, but over here, police often does not agree to enforce visitation rights, for the simple reason that they consider it too traumatising for the child. They say that the drawbacks outweight the advantages. So yes, it is unfortunate for the non-custodial parent, but they just have to live with it.
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Getting police involved and taking the issue to court are two different matters.
I have no idea how things are outside of the U.S. But it doesn’t sound like things are all that different.
In any case, my primary interest in this issue is where it affects OTD parents. And in those cases, the frum one often impedes normal relationship with the OTD parent, and in those case, unless the parents are both mature and can agree to remain civil with each other, court-enforcement is a sad but often necessary option.
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If both parents are looking at the best interest of the child, there simply won’t be a problem. They will compromise, using anything necessary for the child. The child can go camping, or visit with a friend, or whatever. It’s the child that matters.
But if the child becomes the shuttlecock in a badminton gam, then the courts must step in. A schedule is necessary, and must be complied with. If it isn’t, then one parent is jerking the other around.
The same goes for support. Child support is pretty uniform throughout the country, and simply must be paid. That’s the end of it.
The knives and guns come out with visitation. Support, or lack of same is easy to prove and enforce. And if it isn’t paid, someone goes to jail until it is paid. Simple. But interference with visitation is a mess, and is not simple.
The best interest of the child is key, and if it’s there, there isn’t a problem. If it’s not there, there is a big problem, and there will continue to be a big problem until both parents die.
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Do your utmost to get the kid, your son, out of the devilish clutches of the chasidem, even if it means taking your legal battle all the way to the Supreme Court. These eastern Europeans have only one goal in mind – to place him in a cookie cutter mold so he turns out exactly like thousands of others, an obedient moron grazing contentedly among other cows in the field. Give him a secular education and maybe he’ll be famous one day for something other than eating herring.
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Yes, you are being selfish. Grow up. The child did not choose to be born and, in a way, he is being punished y both parents. The mom, well, by creating problems during visitation. The father by wanting to abandon his child. The whole issue has nothing to do with what The People think, or the mother, or whoever. The father needs face the responsibility of caring for his little boy, even if in a fractured way. So the mother was upset about the size of the kippah on the child? Well, so be it. You can’t use other people as excuses for your own childish behaviour.
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article in short: i have a kid but i dont care about him.
proper response: your a jerk.
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