Opinion
Sex-Segregated Buses
The B110 "Williamsburg-Boro Park" Bus
Like a school of hungry piranhas, the secular media seems to have discovered misogyny in the Chasidic world and they’re having themselves a feast. First, sites like Gothamist and Gawker discovered the signs in Williamsburg urging women to step aside for men. And last week, just as Chasidim were preparing to shut down for a three-day holiday, the New York World gave the world a shocking revelation: The B110 line, the four-decades-old bus route known as “the Williamsburg-Boro Park bus,” has sex-segregated seating. As we say in Williamsburg, “Git morgen!”
Now every major media outlet seems to have picked up on the story, and suddenly it appears — at least to those of us who follow such things obsessively — as if the world found a new cause célèbre: Let’s learn the Chasidim something about civil rights and the evils of discrimination. Wonderful idea.
But my honest opinion? It’s a brouhaha that matters little. Not because shoving women to the back of the bus is okay; it is nothing if not deeply offensive to anyone with basic respect for human dignity. And while the back of the bus might be a perfectly fine place to ride if one chooses it, in this case it is clearly indicative of the misogyny endemic to the Chasidic – and to some extent the broader Orthodox – world. Still and all, the mercurial indignation of liberal-minded New Yorkers is something I take great pleasure in rolling my eyes at, and this particular incident sends my eyes rolling at top speed.
There was a time – nisht mehr gedacht – when I was married to an ehrlich Chasidish veibel, who was very much insistent on doing things the right way. At one point, as a newly conscientious member of civilized society, I thought that if I couldn’t repair the world, I could at least start by doing away with sex-segregation in our own family minivan.
In the Skver shtetl, where I was living at the time, women were expected to sit in the back of whatever vehicle they were riding in, even if it was the family car. With a burgeoning itch for defying our cultural norms – and, to be honest, perhaps a little indignant that my own wife preferred to keep that symbolic space between us – I declared that as far as I was concerned she was entitled to her rightful place in the front passenger seat of our Honda Odyssey. It wouldn’t be an act of great rebellion; heavens, I wasn’t suggesting that she drive the car, only that we flip a very gentle middle finger to the Neanderthals who sought to control every aspect of our lives. My then-aishes chayil didn’t see the point and insisted, thank you very much, that the back of the car was just fine. It was where she felt most comfortable, and she wished, for godssakes, that I would just drop it.
My wife did join me in the front eventually, after much coaxing, more for the sake of familial harmony than anything else. But I learned a lesson then, which was only reinforced several years later, when I tried – unsuccessfully – to convince her to get her own driver’s license: You can’t shove victim-consciousness down anyone’s throat.
As far as I am aware, there isn’t much formal data about Chasidic women and their willingness – or lack thereof – to live their lives as second-class citizens. Anecdotal evidence suggests that there are many who resent it, but there are also many – perhaps most – who see it as just another one of the million idiosyncrasies of their already highly restrictive lives. (Oddly, I know more Modern Orthodox women who resent the waist-level mechitza in MO shuls than Chasidic women who resent their place in the back of the bus.)
Furthermore, there’s evidence to suggest that female leaders in the Chasidic world are just as insistent on institutionalized sex-segregation as their male counterparts. Witness the various rebbetzins who talk about nothing but tznius, and the various girls’ school principals who send heavy tomes each semester with careful lists of colors, brand names, accessories and of course garment types that are prohibited to their student body. Some will argue, of course, that female leaders take their cues from the male leaders, but that’s beside the point. The point is, consciousness about discrimination has to take root, first and foremost, in the minds of those discriminated against before it can be effectively dealt with.
It is indeed unfortunate that the apologia about women’s roles in Chasidic society is so ingrained that women themselves are often complicit in perpetuating it. But if Chasidic women aren’t moved to be outraged by the state of affairs, what, pray tell, can anyone do about it?
The media can of course make a big tzimmes about this bus and its segregation. They can get the government involved, send angry letters of protest to the bus company, have the mayor stamp his foot very firmly on the steps of City Hall. What will happen then? Nothing at all. Yes, the bus company might remove the signs that tell women to move to the back. Yes, passengers might learn that if a non-Chasidic woman gets on the bus, it’s best to be quiet because she might be one of those evil journalists who’ve come to shame them. But other than that, Chasidic men will continue to send women to the back. And, just as importantly, Chasidic women will send men to the front as well — as happened once to one friend of mine, a smart-ass secular guy who thought he’d go sit in the back among the women; he was promptly told to move his chameraizel ass.
We might say that despite our inability to effect change, the practice is unjust and we should welcome the outrage of the outside world. And there, I believe, is the problem.
The outrage of outsiders won’t effect change largely because outsiders don’t seem to actually care about the plight of Chasidic women. Rather, they seem driven by a general distaste for all things Chasidic and, in this case, by the larger symbolism of back-of-the-bus discrimination. To them, Chasidic women are pawns in a larger struggle to root out discrimination everywhere, a worthy cause, no doubt, but one that Chasidic women, by and large, will not care for. Moreover, outsider outrage produces a defensive posture within the Chasidic community – on the part of both men and women – and speaking out against discriminatory practices, even by the tiny minority who might do so otherwise, becomes even more unlikely. I have yet to see those indignant outsiders bother to speak to actual living, breathing Chasidic women (or men, for that matter) to gauge how they feel about it. This outrage, therefore, is nothing but a projection of their own feelings and beliefs onto the women in the Chasidic community, imagining that they too must feel this way. And if they don’t, then they should. This is particularly true of those who call for the city to shut down the bus line. Here’s the reality that these advocates don’t bother considering: Shut it down and chances are that these poor women’s lives will only become all the more difficult.
In the end, I believe it is wrong to deny agency for Chasidic women, as if the world knows what is best for them better than they do. Rather, it is Chasidic women, first and foremost, who need to speak out — be it about sex-segregation on buses or the many other issues that affect them. Those women who feel aggrieved should knock down the doors of every ruv and rebbetzin and tell them how they really feel. Those with Internet access should swarm every Internet message board, every blog, and every comments section of every news article on this issue to register their outrage over how they are treated. They should speak out against signs telling them to step aside for men, refuse to be shuttered into their kitchens and veiber shiels, give a piece of their mind to any man who tells them to sit anywhere but where they themselves freely choose, and insist that, for goodness sakes, they too can study a blatt gemureh with Rishonim and Achronim if they so wish. For now, the public hears only from those who adamantly claim that they do not object to their status, that they do not feel subjugated or demeaned, but respected and empowered. A load of crock, you and I might say, and, at least in my opinion, we’re right. But that’s neither here nor there.
Marx was right about class-consciousness, and history bears him out. There would be no civil rights movement if African Americans weren’t themselves driven to protest. The same goes for women’s lib, the fight against anti-Semitism, and more recently, efforts to battle Islamophobia.
Those who are wronged must speak up. And the time has come for Chasidic women to do the same.
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Outstanding.
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> The outrage… seems driven by a general distaste for all things Chasidic and, in this case, by the larger symbolism of back-of-the-bus discrimination.
This might be true in general, but there is also a large contingent of people who get angry by this that are actually ex-chassidic, and to whom this description does not quite fit. For them the underlying motivation is driven more by wanting to finally stand up to those intolerant religious bastards who impose their extremist standards everywhere they can.
While I understand the sentiment, and fully sympathize with it, I think it will accomplish nothing in the long run, other than provide the agitators with a short lived sense of moral rectitude. And like you said, may even possibly make life more difficult for the people most affected by this issue.
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Hedyot — I would think they’re included in those “driven by a general distaste for all things Chasidic.” No?
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No, not at all. Many of them are quite fond of so much of chassidic culture. They just can’t stand the stuff that intrudes on peoples personal lives.
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I hear that. You’re right, that’s definitely a segment that exists (although they’re not part of the media I was referring to). My point was mainly that those outraged seem so gleeful, that it’s obvious that none of this is driven by sympathy for Chasidish women. And that would include those you mention.
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There’s another issue here, what the hell is a city bus only for hasidim????
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Oscar Wilde said “The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.” The foolish females suffering this nonsense are teaching it, too. They LIKE being treated with contempt. It’s considered feminine. And it sure beats the hell outta having to argue with the apes who force the back of the bus issue whenever women realize that it’s not such a good idea after all.
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Interesting article. I wonder why the author chose not to mention that besides the Williamsburg/Boro Park bus line, all bus lines catering to hasidim are sex-segregated down the center, giving women and men identical seat spaces in identical spots. This includes, among others, buses to Monroe, Monsey, and the Catskills. I wonder why the author chose to jump to the conclusion that there is misogyny involved, if there might perhaps not be another reason why the Willi/BP bus is the anomaly. One suggestion that might come to mind: The back of the bus has a larger empty space, where women keep their carriages unfolded with children inside. In fact, the Willi/BP bus is the only one to have such a space (as opposed to the Catskills, Monsey, Monroe buses), so this would have actually been a reasonable speculation. At least as reasonable as misogyny.
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I’m Laughing Once again at those that seem so “outraged”… Outraged at Kapporos , outraged at jewish customs, outraged at the segregation on the bus…laughing , because well, its laughable. Why take offense when those that your’e offended for don’t seem to be mildly offended in the first place????
In every sect of religion, there are always a few , or groups of a few that step beyond the fringe, and question. But majority are satisfied living in a bubble. Some would go so far to say that they are more than satisfied, they are content.
So why waste your fury ? Most ultra – orthodox women are perfectly content sitting seperately. Obviously, there’s a reason why this is done – a reason which should be respected because we live in a country that gives us the right to practice freedom of religion. If you don’t believe in being ultra- orthodox than guess what? ya dont have to practice it ( the reason itself I won’t delve into because those reasonings would lead to further mocking and outrage).
I’m not offering a personal opinion here, all I’m saying is -LIVE AND LET LIVE. DOn’t waste your time being irritated by religious customs that dont seem to offend those that actually practice it.
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> The outrage… seems driven by a general distaste for all things Chasidic and, in this case, by the larger symbolism of back-of-the-bus discrimination.
And because these buses are partially city-funded, essentially making this discrimination tax-payer subsidized. That’s why many people are more upset by this than the Monsey Trails line or other similar cases.
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Geez lissa, did you read the article?
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I really think that the only reason the secular world is taking notice is because the section that the women are asked/forced to sit happens to be the back of the bus, which brings to mind the odious Jim Crow laws of our history. If it were segregated right and left like the touring busses, as another commenter pointed out, I doubt that anybody would have ever heard about it.
Better that they should report on the refusal of the chassidic community to provide their children with an education, which is where self-awareness is fostered. Most 18 year old Satmar kids couldn’t pass a remedial science course at a Junior College. THAT is a crime.
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I agree with much of what you wrote here, but one possible tzad you left out is that the reason why the Chassidishe women aren’t raising their voices in protest is because they’re practically suffering from battered-wife syndrome. I.e., they can’t protest because they can’t even find their voice anymore, that’s how put down they are at this point. They just figure they deserve their treatment, that they can’t do any better anyway, and they don’t have enough sense of self-worth to think otherwise. (Not to mention the possibility that some women really would catch a beating if they tried to protest, but I’m not even talking about that.)
Of course, it’s a little hard to swallow this theory when the victim of the abuse doesn’t even think she’s being abused (as opposed to recognizing that she’s being abused but thinking she has it coming in some way).
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Dan, interesting point. It brings me back to an essential point to me and my thought about the chassidic world . Which is ; is it moral to give freedom to someone who “enjoys” being enslaved? I understand Dan that you may argue, but their enjoyment of slavery is has been pushed onto them. But still, maybe in their current state , they are happy as slaves and therefore why should an outside force come and rock the boat.
Disclaimer- all I mean by slave, is the opposite of a free person.
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Lissa, I’m starting to notice that many of your comments seem much more filled with fury than the articles on which you are commenting. I wonder why that is?
Dan, I think you are completely right – there does seem to be a curious sort of Stockholm syndrome that goes on sometimes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome )amongst the female members of extremely fundamentalist religions. It makes me wonder if there will ever be a chassidish Rosa Parks…that would be super cool…
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When I went on the Boro Park/Williamsburg bus, the thing that bothered me the most was not so much the segregation itself, as the fact that most of the women were standing and were squish-crammed together, but there were far fewer men in an equally sized men’s section — they actually had empty seats. One man who was sitting in the last row of the men’s section had an empty seat beside him, and could simply have moved up to an empty seat closer to the front, thereby opening up seats for two women. But he didn’t. Because he didn’t respect women enough even to expend such minimal effort.
Another thing — the segregation issue happens in Israel, too — and is worse there because the lines on which it occurs are also often used by non-Chasidim, who are forced or coerced, very much against their will, to sit wherever the charedim want them to. If a woman gets on a bus and sits in the front, even if she’s not directly next to a Chasidish man, she’ll get yelled at and threatened until she moves. And these are public buses, and since Charedim in Israel recieve taxes rather than paying them, the buses are paid for by the non-Charedi population.
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This bus segregation brouhaha makes me think of an obese ugly woman who suffers from terrible acne and varicose veins, being advised to tint her eyebrows to enhance her appearance.
Ha! If only bus segregation would be a Chasidic women’s “problem”….
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First, great article. Second, I can’t say that I agree with you: We all know that sexism starts in the chassidic elementary schools at a very young age. The girls are taught to be happy with there lot, regardless of how ridiculous it is. This explains why the women that don’t complain don’t complain. However, this is what necessitates outside interference. You claim that the women that are bothered by this should bang on rabbis’ doors, flood the internet with their outrage, do you really think that this will change anything. They would be complaining women, I can easily see the rabbi’s butler tell them off and sending them home. As far as the internet flooding goes, chassidish rabbonim don’t give a damn. (One activity that might work is to get a significant number of people to ride the bus (while disobeying the segregation rules) enough times that the rule starts to be ignored by everyone; this won’t shut down the line and will get rid of segregation.)
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(disregard this post, just wanted to subscribe to the comment thread)
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Sholom, excellent article. But there’s one notion that maybe you’re missing here. For for every thousand Chassidish men and women who will indeed take a defensive posture, there might be one or two, who will think to themselves, “hey, this IS wrong”. And that one in ten thousand could be someone who changes the course of things in a big way. And even if not, even if that ends up being just an individual’s personal “consciousness raising”, the whole tsimmus may well be worth it.
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Yitzchok — So you’re saying that women speaking out won’t work, but getting the DOT to remove a little signs on the buses will? I don’t follow the logic. What’s going to change?
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“This outrage, therefore, is nothing but a projection of their own feelings and beliefs onto the women in the Chasidic community, imagining that they too must feel this way. And if they don’t, then they should.”
Absolutely. Righteousness is missguided even when it is on the right side of the issue.
I am however, completely flabbergasted that some women have to ride in the back of their own family’s minivan!?! WTH?
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BHB — Fair point. I agree, a tzimmes does get people talking. In an indirect way, it can lead to change.
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JBC — “Have to” is a strong way to put it. “Expected to” is how I phrased it. It’s a societal norm, not an absolute rule. (Although, who knows, at the rate things are going, maybe it’s on the books already. it’s been several years since I left that place.)
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I have to laugh. So many of the “unpious” here will damn and condemn Charedism and all its abominations. They proudly proclaim their freedom.
But let someone from outside notice anything wrong and they rush back to the Fold, baa-ing the slogans they were brought up with. They “roll their eyes” at the outrage. They’re just sure it’s because goyim hate Jews and burst into flames at the sight of the Torah. Besides, the women aren’t really oppressed. If they were they’d object. Until then keep your tiny upturned goyishe nose out of the private affairs of yidden.
The cognitive dissonance here is loud enough to require OSHA labels and protective equipment.
This shit is wrong. It’s backwards. It’s evil. It has no place in a decent society. When it gets out that Jews act like Saudis or the Jim Crow South with women as niggers they’ll be disgusted. And since this evil is being done with public money they’ll be even louder about demanding that their money not go to pay for it.
Grow up guys. Pull your heads out of your asses and turn off the “They hate us because we’re Jews. They hate us because we’re holy. All goyim are evil” tape. This isn’t a chillul hashem which needs to be hidden. It’s a pus filled boil that needs to be lanced.
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Todd — Hyperbolic insinuations can certainly be entertaining. But consider making a reasoned argument if you want people to actually, you know, consider it.
You gave yourself away with this:
“…turn off the “They hate us because we’re Jews. They hate us because we’re holy. All goyim are evil” tape.”
There was nothing of the sort in this essay. Not even close.
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I suspect the majority of the women will never realize they’re victims let alone speak out. After all, it would be a bit much to ask of someone whose indoctrination began at hour zero to see themselves as victims. The system is geniously designed to prevent such things from happening; so much so that even the “oifgeklerte” don’t feel discriminated against.
Great and humorous article, btw.
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Shulem, I didn’t say that the DOT removing signs will change things. I said that people starting to ignore the rules en mass would
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Sholom–LG here–formerly from Rap. Had no idea you were just a fantastic writer–or that you came from such a chassidish background. Great essay with great clarity. One question though—as a MO woman, I am truly confused—MO women are offended by the waist high mechitza b/c it is too low OR too high? (the fact that I don’t actually know which way the offense goes is a statement on our community as well… heh heh)
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Yitzchok — That isn’t what will lead to change, that’s the change itself. The question is how we get there…
LG — Not all MO women, only that I know several. (And I know of many more.) The issue is with the mechitza itself, where women are placed behind a barrier and relegated to less than full participation in services. I have no idea if those who resent it are significant, proportionally. But as far as I can tell, they’re certainly more vocal about it than Chasidish women are.
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Shulem, we get there by people like you and me doing it. If we have enough people, the rule will be forgotten by those that currently observe it.
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This article is fantastic. And um yea – I read it , but hey, If you’re following my comments AND THE STYLE I’M APPARENTLY USING- then it seems ..NATE…as if I’ve gots me a fan .mwehehehee…
My point was ( although I thought it was clear) that people OUTSIDE the faith don’t seem to care THAT much about religious customs. They’re busy with politics, world hunger, celebrity gossip,and a myriad of other stuff (you’ll have to check what’s been googled most…) It seems like they mostly aren’t that passionate about where ultra -orthodox women sit. SO my comment , which I will reiterate was LIVE AND LET LIVE. Especially because as the author writes orthdox women themselves aint gonna do anything about it.
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the monsey trails buses aren’t allowed to enforce segregation anymore because they tried to challenge a public bus company years ago who they claimed were stealing there business so after that they werent allowed to put up a mechitzah or enforce separate seating . a mechitzah could only go up if a passenger put it up. the thing is on the monsey bus even when there is a mechitzah up the bus is split down the middle half men , half women. sitting in the back of the bus is degrading if you ask me. i havent been on the monsey bus in several years so things may have changed. on principle i avoid gender segragated buses .
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Yitzchok — The thrust of my piece is that change can only come from within (and the DOT getting involved will change absolutely nothing). Additionally, it will require women to recognize they’re being mistreated. Where do disagree with me?
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I disagree with you in that I don’t consider myself ‘within’ and I believe that I can affect change. I don’t consider you ‘within’ and I believe that you can accept change. Chassidic Whistleblower (group on facebook) once asked “What do you think about education reform in ultra-Orthodox schools (more secular education in yeshivas)?” What I liked about the responses is that a few said “it’ll never happen,” a few said “legal action is the best way to go about it,” but no one said that “it’ll happen by itself” and that is because it is blatantly false. Change in these types of scenarios needs provocation. You cannot expect a child who has been molested by his father all his life to decide on his own that enough is enough. Likewise, you cannot expect women that were told their entire lives that not just are they secondary, but that being secondary is good for them, to say enough is enough, especially when the typical person who has had enough leaves the community instead of changing it.
What I am saying is that you are right about the DOT removing signs not doing anything (but they should still do it out of a matter of principal). But you are wrong in waiting for the oppressed to stand up. It is your responsibility, as someone who has been there, to actively do something. The same holds true for me and for anyone that the above applies to. We are not within, yet we are obligated to change the community regardless.
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Yitzchok — I do consider OTDs to be insiders to some degree, but I’d rather not argue semantics. I won’t discount the ability of OTDs to effect change, although I’m not sure what it might look like. I suppose they can influence former friends, etc.
But there’s a vast difference between this and the education issue. The lack of secular education is more neglect than principle-driven. While the DOT ordering a sign removed changes virtually nothing on the broader sex-segregation issue, the DOE ordering schools to provide better secular curricula changes things right then and there.
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Yitzchok- so your’e equating an analogy of a child being molested by his father repeatedly to a woman who is segregated on a bus?
Because let me be clear- I was molested. repeatedly. By my brother. And I can assure you it certainly isn’t the same as being on a seperate side of the bus.
That child is in pain. ANd yes, they cannot help themselves.
Women who sit far from men on a busride for 45 minutes, are NOT helpless..or in pain. There are many other public busses for them ride on, but they CHOOSE to ride a segregated bus. Personally, that isn’t a choice I would make, but I certainly respect them for their decision to choose their own mode of transportation.
WHy is this a big deal? Why the urgency to bring this to an end?
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Lissa, I wasn’t equating the damage, just the psyche of a victim. I apologize if I said anything offensive.
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Shulem, I’m talking about the commenters as much as the article. But let’s choose one not-completely-random sentence “Rather, they seem driven by a general distaste for all things Chasidic “
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Lissa; although usually I cringe reading your comments because in my opinion you are often off base in your belligerent critique of various articles, Im with you somewhat on this one. I also was a molested victim and I get very nervous when people equate other issues to it… Particularly when the “choice” comparison is made in the manner that Yitzchak did… The most horrifying aspect of molestation is that the child is helpless when they are betrayed by those they trust… To equate that, even in a glancing way, to the helplessness of adult hasidac woman, is wrong. I understand Yitzchak was just trying to draw a parallel to explain how when one is always told something that it is hard to snap out of it… But he should not bring molestation into it, its too extreme of an example.
Lissa; in response to “WHy is this a big deal? Why the urgency to bring this to an end?”
As humans who strive for a better world for ourselves, our children and our species, we have to carry with us a finely calibrated moral compass. When we see something that is wrong, we must shout out loudly against it.
I suspect I can anticipate your response to this… You might say “I dont see you yelling about other injustices!!? Its just because your a bunch of bitter OTDers!!”
To that I respond: How do you know? Maybe we are yelling about other injustices. Also, even if were not, this is our world, the world we came from and know, so of course we are going to be more attuned to its happenings and its horrific injustices. And anyway, who cares? Even if we are a bunch of bitter OTDers that is not relevant to the truth that the frum community has many horrible aspects to it and its treatment of woman as second class citizens is one of them.
And when we see something that is wrong, we yell about it.
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Todd — Yes, I realized you meant that sentence. But that’s a far cry from saying non-Jews are evil or hateful or anything of the sort. “Distaste” isn’t hate and it isn’t even wrong. But it can very easily cloud one’s judgment. And it can easily manifest as laughable self-righteousness.
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I want to get Todd and Jewish Philosopher in a debate. I would pay a large amount of money to watch them fight.
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Great piece – and I agree with every word, but not with the conclusion. Of course the sign is not what keeps the women from sitting in the front, and eliminating it won’t change anything. But it’s enough to give Chasidic women second thought weather they really deserve the humiliation. I don’t believe there will be enough of them to make a change in that particular struggle, but one might end up thinking about her right on family planning, on having a career, and so on. As they always say, “every good deed builds another brick for the third bais hamikdash”.
Btw, my guess is that the women sit in the back and men in the front, and not the opposite, is simply because they don’t want the men to chas v’sholom take a look accidently on a women’s shpitzle or hat, not because they are considered as second class.
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siyum hashas, whether or not it is meant to enforce the secondary status of women is irrelevant. It has that affect either way.
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Lissa, I read all the articles on Unpious, and I usually glance through the comments too. Your name has been popping up quite a bit recently, and it doesn’t take a photographic memory to remember your style of commenting. Not sure “fan” is the right word, but sure, I read what you write, as I do everyone else’s comments too…
Other than that, I’m incredibly sorry to hear that both you and Justin were molested. No one deserves to be treated like that, ever, and cover-ups of molestation in the frum community should be publicized too.
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Yitzchak – my point is that almost every chasidic women knows that her sitting only in the back and not only in the front is for a practical reason, so I hardly think it can be considered as humiliating. from a religious point of view there is no need to sit in the back, The religion doesn’t say, women have to sit in the back, the religion only says, men may not look at women and therefore, they have to be segregated. It may be degrading that the sexes are obliged to be segregated, but not that the women have to sit in the back. it can’t be compared to blacks sitting in the back before the civil rights.
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Shulem, change cannot come within because as soon as a chassidic woman expresses an interest in effecting change, she swiftly risks being labeled ex-chassidic, with all the unfortunate accompaniments of that form of rejection. There are so many examples of this, from the female attorney who represented the women’s Hatzalah division to the people trying to argue that Crown Heights ladies should be able to vote in their own vaad hakohol elections.
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Siyum Hashas great point. I think it also ties into one of shulem’s points. That the liberal mindset of trying to save people , and “fix” society , is many times based on the liberals feeling of discomfort or unease as opposed to truly caring about the other person’s suffering (Btw I am a liberal who voted for Obama in 08 and most likely will vote for him in 2012). So they won’t try and understand why women are “made” to sit in the back , but rather they will try to cure it , so they won’t have to suffer their discomfort (images of Jim Crow etc).
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Exactly Velvel. AT the end of the day , it is still a choice. Nobody is forcing an ultra ortho woman to use that specific mode of transporattion. If she chooses to do so, so be it. No need for everyone’s feathers to get ruffled.
Thanks for your understanding as far as the previous comments. My feathers were quite ruffled with that specific analogy – and yes, I do believe there are far bigger fish to fry in this crazy ocean we call society …. I’d love to see some pieces that cover all spectrums of the rainbow.
I did enjoy this article very much.
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Shulem, you have a good point, but I think you need to amplify it a bit.
What most non-Jews, and, unfortunately, many Jews, fail to understand is:
JUDAISM IS NOT A PROSELYTIZING RELIGION
Moreover — and this may be too fine a point for the general public to grasp — the majority of chassidim don’t even want non-chassidische Jews to act like chassidische Jews. (The chassidim who throw rocks at cars on Shabbos are a beensy minority.)
Most chassidische Jews accept non-chassidische Jews as Jews only with a very tricky sofek. (How do transliterate that?) In other words, a very very ambitious and tenacious non-chassidische Jew would be accepted into the chassidische community only with some lingering doubts as to his or her legal status as a Jew, and with some questions as to whether he or she were a ben/bas niddah.
So, for all practical intents and purposes in the chassidische world, a Reform Jew or a Conservative Jew or even a Modern Orthodox might be, at best, regarded as a Jew only in the narrowest technical definition of the term.
Unless chassidim are imposing their practices on “outsiders,” I don’t really much care what they do.
But because Christianity is a strongly proselytizing faith, when non-Jews in the West hear about “outrageous” chassidische practices, they generally assume that chassidim want to force their practices on everyone else.
(Of course, “insiders” know how hellish life can be for a non-chassidische Jew who enters the chassidische world because of the whole ben/bas niddah issue. But if a non-chassidische person willingly enters the chassidische world knowing what he or she is facing, what’s there to complain about?)
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That’s triple speak
Chamer, aizel, ass. All mean the same thing (Ass means donkey)
I also like the way he uses French “a new cause célèbre”
And right after goes total skver “Let’s learn the Chasidim something about civil rights”
instead of Let’s Teach the Chasidim etc..
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the author is a self-hating jew, he is a shunu upireish which the talmud says is the worst. he better start to do teshuva for his grave sins and for his being a meisis umeidiach (he understands what i mean). out torah – which is druchea darcei noam – will stay forever, shulem does know that torah jews live the happiest life both man and woman. shulem chazor becha before its to late. remember there is world to come.
a pained jew
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I see a parallel here, between female machmiros in that area of Jewish life, and strictly modest Muslimas. I have feeling some on both sides would resent the comparison, but there is definitely misogyny in both societies. When and where women’s lives and choices are restriced, they tend to excell in the areas that are still allowed to them. After all, if you can’t beat a system, you might as well score points for revelling in it.
In homogeneous Muslim societies and neighborhoods, when the group goes more strict, the women gladly take it on, and look down on and sometimes ostracize others who don’t.
Chassidic women can be very insistent, not to mention intrusive, about them and their fellow females sticking to the strictest interpretation of tznius, niddah, mikvah, child-rearing, kashrus…
(I have lived with Chassidic women, and I was one for a few years. However, I have never been a Muslima nor lived amongst them, so if I’m dead wrong on my perceptions there, I am willing to be corrected.)
I tried my darndest to understand what was so great about all the chakiros, including women singing in public (and that was hard, because I love singing). But every explanation I ever hear, from both men and women, in retrospect (but before I ever found Unpious) sounded like so much apologetic ego-stroking, and produced the same results in the end. (If we can’t be forced into the back of the bus, among other things, we’ll have to be convinced it makes us tzedeikos, and that will make us happy.)
I used to be happy with it. Then I was just resigned. I mean, how are your fellow chassidish ladies going to look at you if you choose an ordinary non-segregated public bus line, for example, not to mention the men? As for the women who don’t seem to glory in their segregated status, how many of them would ever dream of breaking out of the mold because of the pervasive community pressure?
(As far as the above-stated anology between child molestation and segregated buses is concerned, I feel it is mistake to make that comparison. I will give the commenter some slack, assuming he has never been a victim himself. However, I know- again, from personal experience- that victims of child sexual abuse are generally motivated by fear, not community pressure.)
I guess I just reached a point where the bull**** broke down in my own mind.
I don’t think we can- or should- force people to change. But we can tell the truth about why certain restrictions were instituted in the first place.
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Flaming liberals anti Jewish but fear Blacks in separating the sexes!
The latest round of anti Semitism comes from the elite NY city white liberals who want to stop the funding of separate seating busses being used by the New York Jewish community. For religious reasons, men and women sit separate,but the liberal haters who don’t even live in Jewish communities,seek to further try to erode Jewish religious life. They claim that since the busses receive funding from the City, they should not be allowed to operate with separate seating of men and women. Like all other issues that liberals oppose, it smacks of hypocrisy and of a double standard. In 1996 in East Harlem, an all girls public school was opened and yet the liberals kept their fat mouths shut. The AJC American Jewish committee along with the other paper tiger organizations remained silent, but continued to fight the vouchers or public aid to yeshivas. Thank heaven that a man,a true hero named MADOFF destroyed numerous secular liberal anti Jewish groups from AJC to a host of big name anti Torah haters,as he MADE OFF with their money.. He must of had a zchus to be able to wipe away over 50 years of enemies of our Torah way of life. The other big mouthed group,the Bnai Brith fired off a statement also against Jews using busses in a Jewish manner. Where are these groups when Blacks get public city funding for separate public schools systems for girls. We in the authentic Jewish community agrees that schools should separate the sexes as it helps the level of education,as proven by the all Black girls school in Harlem. We in the Jewish community must organize a rally or phone campaign to spread this message. STOP THE DOUBLE STANDARD. FUND OUR JEWISH BUSSES LIKE YOU FUND THE BLACK ALL GIRLS PUBLIC SCHOOL. If public funding is withdrawn from our Jewish busses than fares will increase and only hurt the poor passengers. Lets speak up and stop complaining to ourselves. Lets warn every politician from Liberal Schumer and down that we will outvote them through block voting just as we supported Bob Turner over Weprin. First register to vote and then voice your opinion with the citys transportation agency.
jpacnyc.blogspot.com
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I see this a little differently. I think Chassidic/ultra groups seem to be equal opportunity discriminators. The life of a Chassidic male is incomprehensibly restricted, they are kept ignorant and powerless. They are expected to succeed in absurd arenas, like constantly attending prayer services, learning, never masturbating etc. Many chassidic women enjoy the fact that they have slightly more education and are let off the hook for many commandments. I often hear women say disparagingly about the men in their families…”they wouldnt understand” ….
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This is not just about Chasidic women. The group who ride and set the rules for this bus are the same people who threw a fit over the Bedford Ave. bike lane. Conclusion: their misogyny knows no bounds. Misogyny did away with a public good before, and misogyny will do away with a public good now. I won’t tolerate it, and it has nothing to do with speaking for Chasidic women.
The issue is about the establishment of religious norms in public spaces, period. Leave identity politics out of it.
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@Dan — YOU won’t tolerate it? That’s rich. And you’re going to do… what exactly? Stamp your foot real hard? Throw a temper tantrum? There’s nothing you can do within the bounds of the law to stop voluntary de facto sex-segregation.
Of course it’s not about Chasidic women. It’s about people like you being fed up with certain elements among the Chasidim — for good reason, perhaps. But let’s just call it what it is.
As for it being about identity politics — oh yes, that it certainly is. Witness your own foot-in-mouth line:
“The group who ride and set the rules for this bus are the same people who threw a fit over the Bedford Ave. bike lane.”
There are around 200,000 Chasidim in Brooklyn, and you can bet your ass most don’t give a shit about bike lanes. But you wouldn’t know that, would you. Because who cares about such details. Bigoted moron.
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what do you mean that no indignant outsiders have ever spoken to people on the bus? Hell I’m indignant, and I AM a person on a similar bus, monsey trails. and I may not be hasidic but i’m close enough. Certainly got nothing against anyone and everyone hasidic(although monsey trails does not enforce segregation anymore.)
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I’ve also noticed that on Monsey trails, when there is an imbalance of seats available for the women, the men will often move forward and make room. Monsey trails will not enforce segregated seating on the occasions a passenger (often but not always myself) doesn’t wish to sit there. I suspect the two things are related, that is i suspect that sticking to the rules even minimally leads to more courteous and respectful behavior.
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zev brenner addresses this issue on his radio show
http://talklinecommunications.com/broadcasts/?p=episode&name=2011-10-30_talkline_sun_1030_willy_bus_controversy.mp3
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luvin this thread.
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Regards from the Williamsburg- BP bus – I rode it today. Well, they succeeded, I noticed a note saying something like: discrimination based on gender, origin, etc. is prohibited.
Interestingly, the women headed straight to the back, while the men stayed in the front…
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“YOU won’t tolerate it? That’s rich. And you’re going to do… what exactly? Stamp your foot real hard? Throw a temper tantrum? There’s nothing you can do within the bounds of the law to stop voluntary de facto sex-segregation.”
Except call my councilman about it. I don’t break laws when I don’t like something, that’s a Satmar MO.
“There are around 200,000 Chasidim in Brooklyn, and you can bet your ass most don’t give a shit about bike lanes. But you wouldn’t know that, would you. Because who cares about such details. Bigoted moron.”
I’m well aware of the diversity of Chasidic groups. Why are misogynists such numbnuts?
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so what do u say women shouled seat next to man ? the bottom line how will it work? any man will seat themsalves next to awomen he admires or appales to him how will the women feel ? u don.t make any sense at all this is just the most practical way ? soory but i thibnk u are real stpuid
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Abe, I would say a Jew can deal with it the same way any normal person would. If you’re sitting next to a woman don’t slobber on her. Don’t get an erection at the thought of being a couple inches away from her. Don’t stare at her and undress her with your eyes. Really, it’s not that hard. Almost all men who haven’t had the disadvantage of abnormal psycho-sexual development can do this. You are suffering from a yeshiva upbringing, but even you can rise above it and learn to be a normal adult.
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Check out this article in yesterday’s Jerusalem Post:
“There is absolutely no basis in Jewish law for the separation of men and women on buses or public streets.”
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=245842
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@Libby
The deal is that it does not matter to these folks that there’s no basis in Jewish law for this sort of thing.
These people willingly take on many strictures that go above and beyond even the most stringent normative readings of Jewish law. (Even though Torah explicitly prohibits zealotry.)
This trend has been building for some time, much to the dismay of Modern Orthodox, or dati leumi, yiddin. Every year some rebbe or another dreams up some new outlandish chumrah or stricture, such as forbidding little girls from singing Mah Nishtanah during seders.
There’s always something. The ultra-Orthodox have shariah envy and, so far, there’s absolutely no movement within their ranks that’s started yelling, “Enough already! This is crazy! You’re going too far! You’re creating a religion that has nothing to do with Judaism!”
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I agree completely. That’s always the problem with extreme religious and political ideologies, and it’s getting worse. Enough already – it’s crazy and it’s dangerous.
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I used to be one of those women within the frum community who defended womens rights…..it was a thanklbess task that made me sick with rage…..amused my family…amused my friends….and met with swift harsh resistance from teachers and authority. I was made to feel that it was I who had the problem thanks to my inability to accept the truths of women’s inferior minds and weakness of spirit. I was warned that my attitude will ruin my chances of ever being happy with a man. How will I get a shidduch? And what man can accept such an unhappy woman who doesnt know her place?
I never resolved this conflict. I had to leave the community over this issue and finally found some peace. But the rage is still there. Why are women accepting their roles? Why are men ok with theirs? Because they make it so bloody difficult to think differently!! I dont have another answer and I never did.
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The buses are paid for by public taxes, right?
I think the outrage in the secular community relates to the fact that public taxes are being used to pay for segregated public buses, *and* that a secular person who uses the buses needs to adhere to these religious rules, even though the person isn’t Orthodox.
I don’t think the outrage is just due to Hasidic bashing or liberal projection of guilt. I think the secular society is intrigued by the fact that the women won’t speak up. But that’s not the real issue. I don’t think the secular community would give two figs if the Orthodox community just had its own bus. But that’s a City bus we’re talking about. A public bus.
A commentator said that a cheeky secular man wanted to ride in the back of the bus with the Orthodox women, and he was told to just move to the front of the bus. It’s a cause for laughter — look, the pious women are policing themselves! But let’s reverse this scenario. Suppose a secular woman, a taxpayer, took the same bus and tried to sit in the front with the Orthodox men. And the reaction of the Orthodox men would be to tell her that she had to sit at the back of the bus.
It makes you wince, doesn’t it?
If a community wants segregated buses, it’ll have to pay for it, and stop relying on the goodwill of the larger society.
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“The buses are paid for by public taxes, right?”
They are not. The bus company is not subsidized by the government. In fact, the company pays the city for the franchise.
Does that change things? I’m not sure. But if that’s the premise of your argument, then it’s faulty.
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Shalom,
HYPOCRITES!
Nothing has changed in over 2000 years!
“I think the outrage in the secular community relates to the fact that public taxes are being used to pay for segregated public buses, *and* that a secular person who uses the buses needs to adhere to these religious rules, even though the person isn’t Orthodox”.
BRING SHARIA LAW & TEACH THESE ORTHODOX JEWS MANNERS!
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Nothing against people following there own customs and I’m not sure if this would happen. But if a Hasidic/orthodox,etc asked/told my girlfriend to sit in the back or anywhere other than her current seat for that matter, I’d have a few choice words for him probably including an “F off”..
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Wow, Brian, that’s pretty macho stuff: A bunch of dudes cussing at each other about where to stow their pretty little things.
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