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The Fence
The fence upon which I am sitting sits between two fields of opportunity, one secular and one religious. Each field belongs to a separate nation, one a democracy and one a theocracy. Each nation has its own set of laws and customs, as well as its own set of strengths and weaknesses. While guards do stand at the border, those who are determined enough can survive the journey from one side to the other.
I first encountered this fence many years ago, while still a child. I was born on the secular side of the fence. This side of the fence offered me a life full of choices, yet lacked in meaning. In school, while other children were primarily interested in movies and sports, I read a lot and thought about different topics. I searched desperately for a direction and a purpose in life. I tried to fit in throughout school and discovered that the rigid popularity structure did not leave room for those like me.
I sought a purpose in life, and I found it on the other side of the fence. The pull towards the other side was so strong that I did not delay. I ran towards the fence without looking back. With tremendous effort I scaled the fence, landed on the other side, and began a journey deeper into the frum land. I went to schools with those born there, learned the local languages, and managed to fit in.
Yet I have suffered here. The lack of choices on the frum side are stifling, and underneath the Utopian facade corruption runs rampant. On this side of the fence, there is a singular focus that leaves little room for individuality and exploration. I feel stuck in a world where the home is expected to be the focus of a woman’s life, and it cannot be the focus of mine.
As an adult, I see a different society on the secular side of the fence. Secular society is large enough for everyone to find a place, even those like me. I feel the need to explore, and therefore I long for the choices of my youth.
So I have inched my way back towards the fence, and stared at it with trepidation. I have climbed up that fence one aveira at a time, until I reached its peak. I stare at the secular side of the fence, longing for its freedom, yet unable to jump. I look back at the frum side of the fence, and see my husband and children below. I see a rope and think “Should I bring my children with me to the other side?” I cannot bring my husband with me, he will never come. Some days I think that I will throw the rope, get my children, jump, and run for dear life. But yet something is stopping me. I feel an inexplicable pull towards the frum side that has hurt me so much. Frumkeit has become part of me somehow. I can’t just leave. Yet I cannot stay.
So I remain here on the fence, exposed to the elements. I attempt to straddle the fence and live in both worlds, yet the fence serves as a barrier between the two.
Is it possible to cross from one side to another as needed? Perhaps it is, but it requires so much effort that it will likely wear me down.
So it seems that for now I will remain right here. I may as well enjoy the view.
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Originally published on Sitting on the Fence on August 22, 2011, and reprinted here with permission. Authors have asked us to note that as the essays featured in “Best of the Blogs” document journeys of transformation, the author’s views may have changed since initial publication.
Nominate your own Best of the Blogs posts with an email to unpious.submissions@gmail.com.
Printable Version
Dear Fence,
Have you ever thought of getting to know some garden-variety Sephardim, especially of the Israeli sub-variety?
Of course they have their zealots but, overall, they tend to have a more laissez-faire approach to the whole frum/frei thang and have a habit of seeing Jews as existing along a spectrum of observance.
In other words, you can meet completely 100% glatt-kosher Orthodox Sephardim who don’t scream and vomit blood if a relative drives to their house for Shabbos lunch.
There’s also, you know, the broad range of Modern Orthodoxy to explore. You’d probably be pleasantly surprised to learn that there are plenty of tichel-/shaytle-wearing, Shabbos- and taharas-mishpocha-keeping Modern Orthodox women who have PhDs and careers and who read secular literature and don’t see themselves as living some kind of hellish paradox.
Your desire for what you perceive as “freedom” isn’t unnatural.
But your seeing the world as wholly binary, as on/off, yes/no, black-or-white, is about as rational as seeing the world as populated by unicorns and elves.
Free your mind. The life you save may be your own.
Sincerely,
DB
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“But your seeing the world as wholly binary…”
Der Bik — Seems to me that you’re the one seeing things as wholly binary. FS has found herself straddling the fence and finding her own way to deal with it. You, on the other hand, seem to think that the only legitimate way is some form of Orthodoxy. That seems pretty black and white to me.
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This really hurts to read. You write so clearly, I really feel for you. I hope some of the other formerly frum mothers can give you some comfort or advice. As I am not frum I have no idea how to navigate what you are living through. But as mother, I feel your pain. As a woman who has traveled through various paths in life, I understand that loneliness you felt in the secular world, and your search for deeper meaning. I am so so sorry that you found a world where “underneath the Utopian facade corruption runs rampant..” ain’t that the way of this messed up world. So much corruption everywhere, getting in the way of the honest people, those refusing to put one foot in front of the other like the walking dead. I admire you for being the other type of person, the one with her eyes wide open, the one who’s lived and made choices true to her heart’s longing. I admire you because you are that strong, self-aware person, who’s climbed that darned wall twice.
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@ Shulem
First of all, Ms. Fence describes herself as astride a fence. Not a pyramid or a dome or a twelve-sided prism. A fence. Which is something that has only *two* sides.
Moreover, in her own words, Ms. Fence says, “I feel an inexplicable pull towards the frum side that has hurt me so much. Frumkeit has become part of me somehow…”
Please note her use of the word “frumkeit.”
Obviously, she finds something of value – spiritual, emotional, cultural, whatever – in *frumkeit*, otherwise she wouldn’t be experiencing this conflict.
Why should it be an either/or situation?
As I suggested, she might get to know some Sephardim who manage, even within their own families, to integrate people of different levels of observance. There are plenty of Modern Orthodox Jews who also balance Orthodox observance with their contact and interaction with the secular world.
Ms. Fence says she remains attached to *frumkeit*, not to Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism.
While I of course see all those as entirely valid forms of Judaism, they don’t satisfy the specific criteria by which Ms. Fence has defined her dilema.
She would like to hold close those aspects of frumkeit that are meaningful to her while at the same time having the freedom to explore what’s offered by the secular world.
I tailored my response according to Ms. Fence’s explicit hopes and desires, not according to some covert pro-frumkeit agenda I’m attempting to advance on the unwitting.
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Der Bik — I hear that. You aren’t particularly in favor of Orthodoxy. Fair enough.
But I think you’re missing a major point in Fence’s piece. Granted, she writes about a pull towards “frumkeit,” but frumkeit is as much a cultural world as a religious one. And that cultural world, I would imagine, is the one that first pulled her in and is what she still gravitates towards.
When people first asked me: “If you don’t like the Chasidish world, why don’t you go the Yeshivish world? Or the Modern Orthodox?” I felt stupefied into silence for not knowing how to explain how ludicrous the question was. To me, it was like asking an American who moves to France — but occasionally gets homesick: “Why didn’t you move to Canada instead?” Well, they wanted to move to France, dammit. Canada doesn’t have the Louvre or the Eiffel Tower, or whatever.
Also, you seem to have strong views (both on this post and on others) about what you might call an “all or nothing” attitude, and I think they are astonishingly simplistic. I hear this mantra often: “Why do ex-frum people always do a complete 180, discarding everything? Why can’t they find a middle-ground?” The foolishness in such thinking is that this assumes there’s some clear middle-ground. In reality, the middle-ground differs from person to person. While some might find a middle-ground in a more relaxed form of observance, others find the middle-ground in occasionally partaking in cultural aspects of Judaism. Some find the middle-ground in a visit to a Kosher-style deli, some find it in listening to Jewish music, yet others find it in a generally spiritual Judaism-inspired worldview. Some might even find it in a non-Jewish religious community. This idea that those who leave (or wish to) somehow go too far, quite frankly, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the drives and personal choices of those who do so.
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Maybe try Modern Orthodoxy, Open Orthodoxy, observant Conservative, or non-observant Conservative. All offer a mix between yiddishkeit and the opportunities of the secular world, with the first three requiring sticking to halacha, and the fourth allowing you to stay close to aspects of yiddishkeit without the limits of halacha.
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Sarah, Conservative Judaism is within the limits of halacha. It just has different interpretations of those limits than does Orthodoxy.
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@Shulem
If people like me often suggest that yiddin leaving frumkeit might opt for a “middle ground,” it’s because so many of the yiddin leaving frumkeit often express profound emotional distress and conflict about their departure.
(The irony, of course, is that most Jews who participate in organized Judaism do so *despite* the “community” aspect of Judaism. Synagogue life is often a snake-pit of hellish factionalism and weird in-fighting. So, naturally, those of us outside chassidische life don’t reflexively zero-in on the “cultural” appeal of chassidische frumkeit.)
By the way, I do happen to know francophile Americans who’ve opted for Montreal instead of Paris — the food’s great, rent is A LOT cheaper, you get to speak French all the time, plus it’s a lot closer to NYC.
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I find it condescending when people suggest, try modern orthodoxy, hmm you don’t think someone who has sacrificed a lifestyle , family , sometimes a wife etc hasn’t thought of that.
In general someone who is struggling with religion , going otd ; is in pain , and is dealing with complexity ,and your simple answers won’t help, especially if you don’t acknowledged the complexity.
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This poster, however, is sitting on the fence, and wants BOTH the meaning gained from observant Judaism and the freedom available in the secular world. Thus, I am advising her that there are streams of Judaism that offer an opportunity for both.
“The lack of choices on the frum side are stifling, and underneath the Utopian facade corruption runs rampant. On this side of the fence, there is a singular focus that leaves little room for individuality and exploration.”
My impression was that the poster was not dissatisfied with a halachic lifestyle, but rather with the way the frum world operates. I was offering alternates that would still give her the meaning she desires, but in a freer atmosphere that still allowes her to interact with the secular world.
My response is to this particular poster, not to all people who are off the derech or considering it.
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Sarah did you see her ask for advise anywhere, I didn’t. Also the one aveirah at a time paragraph, seems to demonstrate pretty clearly that she is not happy with orthodoxy as it relates to practice, much more then corruption in he community. Which by the way modern orthodoxy demands that a person keeps halachah and not do “one aveirah at a time”.
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If that is the case, then she will simply not heed my advice because it will not be relevant. No harm done.
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Life is not black and white, Why must there be a fence at all
Tear down the fence and when you feel the need to run to the secular side of the fence you can easily run there and when you need to be on the frum side of the fence you can run to that side of the fence.
Remmeber the grass isnt always greener on the other side of the fence.
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@Velvel Belkin
Yo, Velveleh!
Listen up, homes.
Of all dilemas a person might possibly face in this life, choosing between frum and frei is hardly among the most agonizing.
If you are a frum person whose most agonizing dilema in life, so far, is choosing between frum and frei, then you ought consider yourself very, very lucky.
Consider what it might be like to be a child of an elderly parent who has Alzheimer’s. Your parent, who does experience brief moments of lucidity, is only getting worse and has just been diagnosed with pneumonia. Do you ask your parent’s doctor to give your parent potentially life-saving antibiotics, or do you “let nature take its course”?
Consider what it might be like to be a parent of an adult child who is addicted to heroin. Your child has come to you asking for money. If you give your child the money, your child will use it to buy more heroin and possibly overdose and die, or contract HIV or a lethal hepatitis. If you don’t fork over the cash, your child may or may not commit a crime in order to get money to buy heroin. Your child may be killed while committing the crime, or he or she might end up in prison, where he or she might be violently mistreated or killed. What do you do?
Consider what it might be like to be a young father responsible for a wife and three small children. You have been diagnosed as having a rare metastatic cancer for which the only treatment option is an aggressive form of chemo therapy that might kill you or, at best, extend your life by several months. Your wife pleads with you to try the chemo. Your physician cautions you that even if the chemo doesn’t kill you, its side-effects are so toxic that you will spend several long weeks wishing you were dead. What do you do?
While I don’t discount of dismiss the discomfort experienced by people choosing whether to leave the chassidische world, or frumkeit, and all that might entail, I also know that this is not a life-or-death decision.
It is not an emergency. It is not a house on fire with children trapped in an upstairs bedroom. It is not a war zone in which a live grenade has landed at your feet.
Choosing between frum or frei is a decision endlessly amenable to thought, discussion, investigation, concession, and patience.
It is, moreover, a decision which is open to revision:
You can decide to leave frumkeit and, if you don’t like being frei, you can return to frumkeit.
In the situations I’ve outlined above, you either give the antibiotics or you don’t. You either give your kid the money or you don’t. You either endure the course of chemo or you don’t.
You cannot rescind or undo any of the above decisions. There’s no wriggle-room.
Once your decision is made, there’s no turning back.
Please understand, I don’t want Judaism to be a source of sorrow or misery in the life of any Jew.
I want Judaism to be only a source of joy, solace, and existential meaning for any Jew who chooses to engage in Judaism on any level. (Aval, komo omrim, ze keshe lihiot yehudi. [Forgive the awful transliteration.])
And for those Jews torn between frumkeit and the freedom they perceive in being frei, I would want only that they experience their dilema in the least painful, least disruptive, least destructive, way possible.
If Jews like me rush to give unsolicited advice, it’s not out of condescension. It’s out of compassion.
And it’s also out of an understanding that the decision between frum and frei is not the most agonizing decision that a person might likely face in life, so there’s no reason to blow it out or proportion or make it any more unpleasant than it has to be.
Fo’ shizzle.
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“If Jews like me rush to give unsolicited advice, it’s not out of condescension. It’s out of compassion.”
You certainly have an odd way of showing it. But if you say so…
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@Shulem
Were you to offer an even vaguely plausible explanation of why I’d go out of my way to condescend to complete strangers who couldn’t possibly have hurt or offended me in any way, I’d have an easier time grasping your skepticism.
I wonder whether this confusion might have something to do with your unfamiliarity with Jews whose experience of Judaism and being Jewish is somewhat distant from your own.
While I hesitate to toot my own tiny, rusted horn, I can say that I’ve spent an eccentric amount of time actively involved in ahavas yisroel, which is to say Jewish social service, broadly understood, and have never, to my knowledge, knowingly or unintentionally condescended to anyone, religious or secular, chassidische or misnagdische, male or female, gay or straight, or whatever.
I’m perhaps more flawed than most people, and while I’d grudgingly admit to almost all my sins, errors, and distractions, I couldn’t sincerely confess to being guilty of condescension.
But if anyone’s construed anything I’ve said as condescension, I can only apologize and ask that they please consider that speaking down to them, or otherwise suggesting that I discounted their intelligence, was never my intent.
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Der Bik — Why would anyone ever condescend to others? I don’t know the answer, but I generally prefer not to offer explanations, plausible or otherwise, that involve psychoanalyzing people and hypothesizing about their motivations.
But I can point to words and deeds and their explicit messages. And to me, when one person presumes to know what is or isn’t best for a complete and total stranger, well, let’s just say, humility it ain’t. (And you suggest, often by insinuation but sometimes explicitly, that others lack some essential piece of knowledge about the issues they’re struggling with. And that, my friend, is — yes — condescending. Personally, I’ve never taken offense, but I can understand others who do.)
The tiny glimpses into people’s lives offered in the essays on Unpious suggest that people are struggling with issues that go very deep. They may or may not have a clear grasp of their own options, they may or may not be struggling with issues in ways that others might consider justifiable angst. But the essays are, by definition, mere glimpses. People aren’t writing 300-page autobiographies. They don’t write for advice (they can write our Posek for that!) nor do they write in order to present the full complexity of their aims and desires. They’re sharing tiny slivers about themselves that others might find relatable.
I would also note, it wasn’t me who called your comments “condescending.” Perhaps some feel that they are, and it is of course in the eye of the beholder. But I do think they’re presumptuous. And here’s Exhibit Z:
“I wonder whether this confusion might have something to do with your unfamiliarity with Jews whose experience of Judaism and being Jewish is somewhat distant from your own.”
The fact that you would even wonder suggests something disturbing. Why try to pinpoint the psychological impetus for certain views when you can’t possibly know them? It just so happens that my life has brought me in contact with Jews of all stripes. I won’t go into my entire life-story, but suffice it to say that from a very young age I was exposed to people whose experience with Judaism was vastly different from my own. If you’re curious about specifics, I’d be happy to share. Inquire by email.
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@ Shulem
Re: Condescension
Please note the following from your solicitation for articles for this site:
“How-To guides – How does an ex-Chasid buy a first pair of jeans, crack open a lobster, or find the best tickets for a rock concert? …”
One the one hand you strongly argue that it is at best presumptuous, and at worst, condescending, for non-frummies to offer advice about options that frummies might consider when thinking about leaving frumkeit, while on the other hand you actively solicit articles serving as “how-to” guides for the recently non-frum about buying their first pair of jeans.
Which way, then, would you have us understand the readers of your website?
Are they so chillingly cloistered from the non-chassidische/non-frum world that they need step-by-step instructions on how to buy a pair of pants or a ticket to a rock concert?
Or are they so absolutely well-versed in secular culture and society, and the Jewish world beyond its chassidische/frumkeit variants, that any suggestions offered them by people who live in the secular world and/or participate in Judaism’s non-frumkeit variants can be seen only as presumptuous or condescending?
It would seem that if you were in the business of making the transition easier for people choosing between frum and frei, you would want them, before all else, to know that in the secular world, they will be confronted with a great many different viewpoints about a great many different things.
Moreover, you would want them, before all else, to understand that in the secular world, the expression of diverse viewpoints is not only valued, but encouraged.
However, this is, of course, your website, and it is entirely reasonable for you to define the limits for the diversity of opinion expressed on it. But when these limits are amorphous or unspoken, it’s less than fair of you to chide or condemn participants for having transgressed your website’s amorphous or unspoken limits.
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Der Bik — Your comments seem to have been posted without undue restrictions, so not sure what you’re complaining about. You’re free to be as condescending as you like. Readers are free to call you on it.
Yes, it’s my site, kind of. Not sure how that’s relevant. I speak here as a reader just like anyone else.
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Oh and re the solicitation excerpt, yes, we accept advice. And no, not all advice is condescending. Sorry that you don’t seem to know that yourself.
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Both the article and the comments remind me of the wall between Jenin and Ramat Gan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeT95m2131U
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Fence Sitter, your view of the two fields seems so black and white to me. I see much more color and nuance, with many opportunities for individuality and satisfaction as a frum Jew.
Sure, the Torah provides boundaries and guidelines, just as any government regulates business, transportation, and entertainment. Within those limits, people are free to choose any honest method of earning a livelihood, any healthy form of entertainment and relaxation.
I like the analogy of tzitzis. We tie one third of tzitzis in tight, clearly defined knots. Two-thirds of the strings hang freely. Torah life is similar: Part of our behavior and morality is clearly laid out for us; the rest is free for us to choose according to our personal preferences.
And Torah rules often fit the lifestyle many conform to regardless of religious conviction. Honesty, responsibility, dignity, respect, and much more are part of the Torah code of conduct. Of course, there are ritualistic items, such as Shabbos, Yom Tov, and davening. However, many find those rituals, when properly performed and understood, contribute to healthy living and personal satisfaction.
I see the world open to frum Jewish women. We have many children, thank God, and my wife is becoming a speech therapist. My friend’s mother became doctor mid-life, and moved to Israel with her nine children to follow a dream of specializing in infant coronary disease. My wife’s friend went to Columbia Law School and now has a position in a prestigious firm. She had five children when she began school. I took a student of mine to a frum psychiatrist who just had her tenth child; her husband is still in kollel. A woman around the corner from me is a college professor. She too has several children and her husband is in chinuch. Jean Jofen, whose husband was Rosh Yeshiva in Novardik, was a world-class expert in language and literature and a renowned Shakespearian scholar, and a psychologist to boot. These women cherish Judaism and careful adherence to Torah. They love their families and communities. Their fields were large, fertile, and luxuriant, with no fences interfering with the view.
One area where women might feel limited is in the entertainment industry. However, many women found opportunity for artistic expression in the frum world, from art to singing, dance, writing, and comedy. I wonder if these people would have found similar success had they plied their material to secular audiences. In the frum world, less supply and greater demand means more opportunity and recognition.
I don’t know details of your story. You seem sincere and real, and very trapped. Perhaps you can find a way out. Rather than sitting on a fence, maybe you can build a bridge to connect your field of meaning with your field of dreams. Maybe you CAN have it all: a loving family, purposeful living, intellectual stimulation, and a satisfying career. Sounds like a marvelous combination!
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“(And you suggest, often by insinuation but sometimes explicitly, that others lack some essential piece of knowledge about the issues they’re struggling with. And that, my friend, is — yes — condescending. Personally, I’ve never taken offense, but I can understand others who do.)”
I personally know an off the derech young person, who, when she got to attend my family’s non orthodox shul said “this is so different than what I expected”.
My personal experience is that off the derech haredim (and of course, on the derech haredim) are quite as deeply ignorant of what non orthodox Judaism has to offer as they are about many other aspects of the non haredi world (a situation for which I mostly blame the non orthodox movements, BTW)
I don’t think providing information is condescending. But if it is, so be it. Its still worthwhile, and not all of us are equipped to refine our words optimally.
As for why people are so frustrated with the 180 degree stuff – I quarantee you cultural Judaism, being vaguely spiritual, or non Jewish religions dont NEED you the way the non Orthodox Jewish movements need you – we see a Jewish world being taking over by the birth rates of the haredi, and our numbers are too few. And here are beautiful young people, with Jewish knowledge too many of our members lack, who could be such assets to our communities, if only our communities would make an effort to reach out, and if only they knew what our communities could offer, and if only haredi educations hadnt poisoned their minds against us.
Our grandparents and great grandparents were the ex haredim who created Conservative and Reconstruction J and Modern O and who multiplied the numbers and ruach of the Reform movement – yes some of their siblings became secular cultural jews, or converted to christianity, but enough sought a middle way of Judaism to do powerful things in the Jewish world. If we and you can reach a meeting of souls, than perhaps we can create a new Judaism for the 21st century. If not, we will be one step closer to dying synagogues, empty lecture halls, and you can join us as the deli for a last corned beef on rye, while we leave the inheritance of Hillel and Rambam to the corrupt, the totalitarian, and the obscurantist.
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One thing that puzzles me is this: People who go off the derech question, criticize, and ultimately reject so many of the tenets of charedism — silly rules and chumrahs, oppression of women, lack of individuality, lack of any universalism or interest in the secular world. Yet they continue to adhere to one tenet of charedism as vehemently as charedim themselves do: The idea that charedism is the only true form and expression of Judaism. If so many other charedi ideas are seen as the bunk that they are, why not this, too?
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Sarah — There are, in fact, a good number of OTDs who attend non-Orthodox services fairly regularly. So I’m not sure where you get your data from.
I’m curious, though, why would you expect OTDs to be any different from the vast majority of young secular Jews, who are largely unaffiliated?
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There are probably many reasons why young secular Jews remain unaffiliated. I am affiliated, but in my circle, finances have definitely had a role in at least a few of the choices. It is very sad in my opinion that Conservative synagogues (certainly the ones in my city) charge for their high holiday seats. In my city they charge quite a bit. Annual memberships run at or above the $2000 a year mark. Single tickets run $200 to $400 per person. In my personal experience, I know at least 2 young, unaffiliated Jews who would have gladly celebrated at my house if it were not because they couldn’t remotely afford a ticket to shul for High Holidays. Yes, some people do go to the office and ask for a financial break. But some people are not comfortable doing that. So then you gotta give credit to Chabad, and wonder, why can Chabad do it, all over the world, but Conservative shuls can’t, in their own cities?
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Chabad gets major $$ from donors. Some of their fundraising advantage is that donors see O, esp a chassidishe version of it, as more “authentic”. Another, I am told, is that Chabad sucks up to donors shamelessly.
Non O shuls are not going to be able to follow that model. You can either pay your dues/ticket prices, or you can go join one of the lay led independent minyanim.
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“I’m curious, though, why would you expect OTDs to be any different from the vast majority of young secular Jews, who are largely unaffiliated?”
what do you mean by secular? If you mean non orthodox, or non haredi, most do, I think, identify with a Jewish movement, even if they are not currently dues paying members of a synagogue. They are just waiting till they marry and have kids to pay dues. Do you think that is the situation with most OTD’s? Its not the impression one gets.
If you mean the children of actual secular jews – agnostic jews from the UWS say – well in that case the young people are following family tradition.
But OTD’s are children of affiliated households, have non intermarried parents, and usually have day school educations, and often an Israel experience.
If you looked at children of C or R households, non intermarried parents, day school education, and/or an Israel experience, I suspect you will find relatively high rates of movement affiliation, formal or informal.
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So I just wanna point out that JTS is advertising on this site and that amuses me a lot.
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AQuestion — I believe there have been several studies showing that your average twenty- and thirty-something young Jew, while identifying as Jewish, does not place any great importance on religiosity. They might officially consider themselves Reform or Conservative, but often don’t attend synagogue with any degree of regularity and don’t engage with Jewish ritual beyond marking important life events — brissen, bar mitzvahs, weddings, funerals, etc. In that regard, OTDs aren’t very different.
Sarah — JTS is a fine institution. And it so happens, I know many OTDs (myself included) who first earned their heretical chops at the JTS library.
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ChabadWatcher: I belong to a Conservative synagogue, but my children go to the local Chabad preschool, mostly because it is more geographically convenient to our carpool situation. But it also happens to be about $100 a month cheaper than my shul’s preschool. Also, my shul’s preschool is closed for 2 months in the Summer and then they run a more expensive Summer camp. Chabad preschool is open year round for the same fee every month. It’s not that I am not suspect about Chabad’s financial situation. For the life of me, I cannot figure out how the Rabbi and his wife are raising that many children in our city just running that preschool. I’ve been to their house, it isn’t luxurious by any means, but it’s certainly not shabby or small. In terms of their fundraising, it’s been pretty similar to what my own synagogue does: the yearly gala dinner, the high holiday appeal in the mail, pretty normal stuff. They have been gracious about my $20 donation for my child’s birthday, and about my “decline” RSVP to their gala dinner.
BUT, that affordable Chabad preschool and the religious services they run around that preschool, including free high holiday services at a nearby hotel, are attended by and large by non-orthodox, unaffiliated families that either cannot or do not want to spend significant membership money at the local Reform and Conservative Synagogues.
I wouldn’t change my Conservative Synagogue for the world. I get to listen to one male rabbi discuss environmental sustainability in his drash, and on a different day I get to listen to my other female rabbi give a hearfelt drash about how we write our own books of life. You get invited to someone’s shabbat lunch down the street, and even though the walked, they don’t care you drove yourself because you live 5 miles away. I want to support the theology of Mordecai Kaplan & Co, and not the theology of Chabad, for reasons that are very important to me. But I do linger on deciding whether we are being elitist in our Reform and Conservative institutions, and what we might be losing out on, in terms of current statistics of young unaffiliated Jews, by not doing the type of outreach Chabad does.
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shullem – my impression for here and other online sources is that most OTDs only go to those life cycle events when it involves their birth families and others they connected with before going off the derech – they mostly have no current affiliation with organized Judaism. Whereas most 20 and 30 somethings from R and C homes are going to life cycle events tied to their current communities as well, and often (usually?) going to a seder, a high holiday service, etc. Note of course that the number of birth family life cycle events for a 20something R Jew is going to be FAR smaller than for someone from a hassidic family. I don’t think this can be resolved without actual data – maybe the NY Federation will do a study on OTD youth at some point. I think the sense of a profound seperation of OTD haredi (there have been modern O moving to R and C and secular for generations, without mostly the kinds of trauma involved for ex haredi, I dont tend to think of that as part of the OTD phenomenon) from non haredi Judaism, if not universal, is widespread enough to create a strong impression.
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Gabriella
Im not talking about announced fund raisers in your community. The central Chabad organizations do intense fundraising of some quite wealthy people. In theory central Chabad does not subsidize the local shlichim beyond the first couple of years, but they instead direct the donors central knows to give donations to multiple local shlichim. The funding of chabad is complex, and fairly opaque. The cost of your local Conservative shul is NOT being driven by some nefarious use of money. If it were, you would find Reform shuls, or recon shuls, or independent shuls finding some way to provide similar services for less. Instead its Chabad thats the outlier. In which case you need to look to chabad to see how it can do what it does – but I warn you, you will find it opaque.
Try getting in your local C shuls finance committee (by doing hard volunteer work) and see their books. Try to find some way to see the local chabad shaliach’s book. Hmmm.
Chabad is buying Jews. Your local C shul probably can’t afford to. Lost of C shuls are in financial difficulty, as is USCJ.
Though its also true most R and C shuls do provide breaks on dues to people who really can’t afford it. But they don’t have the budget for mass buying of Jews.
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AQuestion — Here’s what I know about the people in my own circles (and from an informal survey I’ve done several months ago):
Few OTDs affiliate officially with a shul or a religious movement (although some definitely do). HOWEVER…
Many OTDs attend non-Orthodox services anywhere from weekly to several times a year.
Even more OTDs attend high-holiday services or mark the holidays in one way or another.
The vast majority of OTDs that I know attend a seder on Passover. I myself hosted a seder a while back, with about 30 OTDs in attendance.
Of the OTDs that I know who were married after leaving Orthodoxy, most chose a religious wedding ceremony of one form or another.
An OTD couple, friends of mine, recently had a baby and celebrated the birth with a kiddush at a non-Orthodox shul.
And sadly — in the case of deaths — funerals too were marked with religious trappings.
All in all, then, I don’t see this as being very different from the behavior of your average secular Jew.
Having said all this, I really wonder about this whole discussion. It seems that some bemoan — and seem to be baffled by — the fact that OTDs aren’t more engaged religiously. Personally, I can’t understand what interest OTDs would have in belonging to a religious community. Many (although certainly not all) have fundamentally rejected the ideas underlying religious sentiment of any sort. And it’s not necessarily because they weren’t exposed to it, only because they usually find the ideas without much merit. Their lives are often full enough without it; so why choose it?
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“Try getting in your local C shuls finance committee (by doing hard volunteer work) and see their books. Try to find some way to see the local chabad shaliach’s book. Hmmm.”
Yes, you are absolutely right about that. My Conservative shul mails out yearly budget reports, and is completely open about their books. The same cannot be said about the Chabad preschool.
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Chabad Watcher
FYI Chabad loves people like you that buy in this notion that it’s a centralized institution directing rich donors to give to local Chabad Houses etc. Other than the FSU there is almost no money flowing from Chabad central to local branches, certainly not enough to keep their prices lower than the local Jewish establishments.
In reality, for most chabad houses (campus chabad houses may be an exception), definitely in the USA, chabad central is nothing more than a glorified resource center and occasional mediator on an arbitrary basis, I am obviously not accounting for the spiritual, social and political attitudes, I speak strictly of the legal and financial organizational structure.
The terms ‘Chabad Central’, ‘most powerfull rabbi’ ‘Billion dollar empire’ are either used by chabad themselves for self promotion, their detractors who want to make them sound mighty and powerful ala ‘Jews run the world’ or lazy journalists who buy into it because it fits their usual mold. These terms have no basis in reality.
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“Many (although certainly not all) have fundamentally rejected the ideas underlying religious sentiment of any sort. And it’s not necessarily because they weren’t exposed to it, only because they usually find the ideas without much merit. Their lives are often full enough without it; so why choose ”
The ideas behind engaging with Judaism are not all the same. Mordechai Kaplan is not Heschel, who is not Leo Baeck. Im not quite sure what the ideas in Skver and Satmar are, but I doubt most people who have learnt Judaism there have been exposed to the way Jews have struggled with the enlightenment, science, and modern life these last two hundred plus years.
I also get the impression that many OTD folks are NOT living full lives – but are living lives where drugs and shallow relationships play a key role, and that some go back to haredi communities (in part) for want of something else. That may just reflect the subset of OTD I know most about. As I said, its hard to say how unrepresentative that is without real data.
And I think even many people with full lives can find much of value in Judaism.
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“than the FSU there is almost no money flowing from Chabad central to local branches, certainly not enough to keep their prices lower than the local Jewish establishments.”
thats what I said. The central shaliach org doesnt write a check to the chabad house in south succotash. They refer donors.
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also it helps that central chabad orgs are funded by donors, whereas USCJ and URJ take dues from member shuls. And of Reform and Conserv rabbis, IIUC, take out loans to pay for seminary, which they must repay (in addition to undergrad education).
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“I also get the impression that many OTD folks are NOT living full lives – but are living lives where drugs and shallow relationships play a key role…”
To me, that pretty much stops the conversation cold. You are obviously unaware of the broad range of OTD experiences. Of my many, many, many OTD friends, I know of very few who are into drugs at all, let alone those for whom drugs play a key role.
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I have really enjoyed reading “Unpious”, as well as “Hasid Rebel”. My background is that I was raised ‘almost’ modern Orthodox. My parents are Holocaust Survivors, and my Mom is from a Shtetl. She told me that she couldn’t be Ultra-Orthodox, the way she was raised, and couldn’t keep all the Shabbos laws, although she did keep most of them. I also have Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox relatives on both sides of my family, and have been an “observer” of both of those worlds all my life. Even so, I will never have the experiences that all of you have had, and I respect that. Comment: David Levine, You mention women’s opportunities professionally; you were referring to only Modern Orthodox women, correct? I have not seen ultra-Orthodox women doing this. Also, none of the women you mention pursued their professions UNTIL they had married with children. My Mom decried my own pursuit of law school up until the day she died Because I did it before marriage; she really condemned me. Shulum: I disagree that the “average secular Jew” attends the number or type of Jewish observances you mention. In my experience, the vast majority rarely, if ever, attend Shul, and when they have a kid don’t have a “kiddush”; about 1/2 I’ve known have had civil wedding ceremonies. I should add that I am from the Midwest, have lived in the deep South, and now reside in Southern California. I have definitely seen regional differences among Jewish communities. Der Bik: I very much disagree with your way of comparing people’s ‘adversities’. I work with the disabled, yet when my regular friends have problems, I never think “what do THEY have to complain about?”. A person who feels he/she has an agonizing choice to make, has an agonizing choice to make, no matter what it concerns. Because my parents are Survivors & were in concentration camps, I could easily tell almost anyone with a problem “who are You to bitch? . . .” but that is very unfair. Mental anguish is anguish. I don’t ascribe to some ‘competition’ re: whose is worse. And to all of you: I give you tremendous credit to decide to leave the only community you’ve ever known, to very possibly never seeing your parents/children, etc. again – now THAT is true anguish. My disabled clients do have terrific anguish in their lives, but ironically, most have incredibly good support systems, the very thing which you may lack. They are rarely homeless, some family/friend most often takes them in, & really helps them.
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Hendl74, I am sorry for the (very) late reply. I did not notice your comment until now. I do not mean only modern orthodox. The women I mentioned are not MO; mostly them are yeshivish. Of course, they are not “super yeshivish”, because “super yeshivish” people don’t attend college! (You can add Rebbitzen Bruria David (of BJJ fame) to the list of chareidi graduates. You can find her Ph.D. thesis at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/david-chajes.pdf.) Also, as far as I know, only two of them married before they earned their degrees.
I like to think about questions I see on Unpious with straightforward Torah halachah and hashkafah considerations, not current Chareidi culture prejudices. There are serious flaws and limits with chassidic and yeshivish philosophy. I throw down this challenge to people dissatisfied with the ethos of their community: Build a better, healthier mindset USING Torah-true ideals. Don’t discard truth because some presenters skew it.
It is sad that your mother could not appreciate the value and potential of your choices. Her culture, her communities standards, said your choices (and by extension you) were unacceptable even if they were not wrong. Perhaps that attitude helps some communities keep their members in line. But for people who come to Unpious because normative chareidi culture is not a good fit, we need to promote more organic Torah-true valuations.
Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch explains that the Jewish people must be “kahal goyim”, a community of nations. We model God’s will to the world, and our members must represent every part of society!
Jewish Action Magazine recently interviewed Lydia Kess who was the first woman, let alone Jewish woman, to become a partner in Davis Polk & Wardwell. You can see the interview here: http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/lydia_kess.pdf. The article has good advice and interesting reflections for Jewish professionals. In her closing remarks, she says, “If there’s a message I want to leave for today’s young women, it’s this: you’re out in the workplace, you want to use your talents, you want recognition. But know that your real raison d’etre is to be a kiddush Hashem, to use your job as an opportunity to show others what it means to be an Orthodox Jew.” If this is your attitude you can forget the “haters”. Shame on any community that disparages you for living the way they should strive to live.
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