In Conversation
“Roundtable Discussion” on “Unorthodox” by Deborah Feldman
The forthcoming release of “Unorthodox,” by Deborah Feldman
Discussion participants are: Leah Vincent, Zelda Deutsch, Shpitzle Shtrimpkind, and Baal Devarim. Moderated by: Shulem Deen. (More detailed participant bios below.)
It should be noted that this discussion is not about the contents of the book, but only about certain issues related to its pre-release publicity. Most of the participants in this discussion have not yet had a chance to read the book, and comments should not be taken as judgment of the book itself.
Regardless of any of the issues raised below, we extend our heartfelt congratulations to Deborah for what is surely a great accomplishment and we wish her the most outstanding success in this and future endeavors.
Click here to purchase “Unorthodox” on Amazon.com.
* * *
Shulem Deen: Let’s begin with the basics.
Many have argued that Feldman, in interviews and articles about the book’s release, has cited practices in the Hasidic community that are either non-existent or in terms too broad to be deemed truthful. (Examples: Hasidim don’t wear seatbelts and don’t take their children to doctors.) Others, on the other hand, have argued that Feldman tells only of her own experiences, and despite the fact that these practices are unrecognizable to many members of these communities, they’re valid parts of her own story.
Do you believe there’s a problem with how she’s presented her story to the media, and if so, why? More specifically, if we recognize that many of her descriptions of Hasidic life are indeed truthful, does it matter that some of her descriptions are exaggerated and/or distorted?
Leah Vincent: I’m thrilled to be a part of this conversation.
I think the issue of exaggeration matters very much. Many of us are very concerned with issues in the ultra-Orthodox community. Because Deborah now has such a public platform, if she does indeed exaggerate, she risks discrediting her peers who are advocating for change.
But I do think there is a fierce backlash against her that is only masked by accusations of exaggeration. My sense is there is a lot of (understandable) fear. Those who leave the ultra-Orthodox community are so reviled by their communities of origin, that many of us struggle with a strong sense of insecurity. We set high standards of success for ourselves, or are extraordinarily respectful of the ultra-Orthodox community, as if desperate to prove that those who leave the ultra-Orthodox community are not “losers” or “liars” or “bitter,” which is what we are often accused of being. And then, there may also be some envy about her literary success.
Personally, though, I’m more concerned with supporting our peers, building our community and exposing the abuses of ultra-Orhodoxy, than protecting our image – although I recognize a minimal amount of the latter is necessary to effectively do the former. If some among us exaggerate – or engage in any other behavior we have been accused of by the ultra-Orthodox – we must take responsibility, but we should be careful not to let the conversation be dominated with small quibbles regarding the character of the ‘accuser’ when there are significantly larger misdeeds of the ‘accused’ that need to be addressed.
Zelda Deutsch: Shulem, thanks for inviting me to be a part of this.
When I first read the Post interview, I was shocked and disappointed. Much of what she said was not familiar to me, even though we grew up in the exact same community. I will give her the benefit of the doubt, though. Two people living in the same household, even more so in the same community, can perceive their environments and experience things very differently. This is her story and how she experienced it. Her experiences and her view of things are as valid as any of ours. I believe she has a right to tell her story as long as she tells the truth, even if it’s with a bit of an angry twist. On the other hand, though, if she is greatly exaggerating or seriously veering from the truth, it makes the rest of us who have gone through this journey look bad.
Growing up in the community and the journey of leaving is already filled with intense experiences and emotions. I don’t understand the need to exaggerate or embellish. There is going to be a backlash against the book regardless of whether she tells the truth or not. Why give them ammunition? Why give them the opportunity to find inconsistencies? I’m hoping that the book is a more accurate portrayal of this journey than the media coverage of it suggests. Notice that I’m not using the word “balanced.” If she feels that her life in the community was filled with more hurt than happiness, I don’t think she is obligated to sugarcoat it.
Baal Devarim: Does it matter if her descriptions are exaggerated/distorted? Of course it matters! Exaggerations and distortions and outright lies serve no-one save perhaps the author (and her publisher). Although it is supposed to be a memoir, the book is clearly marketed as uncovering the dirty little secrets of the Hasidic lifestyle and culture. But, oh, how I wish it does that! Heaven knows, we can use some of that. It would do the Hasidic culture some good to shine a bright spotlight on the rotten aspects (combined with the beautiful aspects) of such a closed but highly visible society.
But so far, we are not getting any of that. Instead we get horrifying and salacious details of lesbian mikveh women and useless sexual organs and grisly murders — some of which may be outright lies (like the murder) and others, while perhaps they may be true in isolated cases, certainly cannot be said to be part of the experience of Hasidic life in general.
Truth matters, especially when you’re pretending to tell the truth. And while some degree of exaggeration and distortion is perhaps acceptable and expected in a popular book, a book with some degree of truth and the rest exaggeration and distortion is not. (Note that my impression of what is in the book is based on the points raised in interviews; so far I have not read the actual book.)
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind: (ehhem.) I would love to be thrilled to be part of this conversation. I’m at the gym and I’m getting more worked up and warmed up on this subject than on squats.
So…
Responding to Leah…
Very much like Leah, I feel there’s a need for change in the community. Abuses, injustice, and infringements on personal freedom are rampant in the community. The pain and trauma that is swept under the rug is unforgivable. However, I believe that change must come from both within and without, that it must come with respect to a culture that has a right to function and blossom as long as the abuses don’t. That change will come from bridging these two worlds, not from burning the bridges. So I wonder: can positive change come from a book that is shining a glaring, flashing media spotlight on the problems of the Hasidic world?
Sadly, from the way the articles were slinging cliched, exaggerated, and often-ridiculous accusations against the community, I don’t see a positive effect. On the contrary, I am afraid that this would inhibit change and only serve to prove the frum community’s attitude toward those who go off the derech. Chasidim in the community who are open to hearing our stories, who need to hear about their rights, who struggle to make sense of their world and the outside world, will not respond to a message that blatantly distorts their own experience of reality. Such an attempt will be perceived only as a transparent attempt at fame. Those living the double life or on the fence will find themselves trying to defend accusations against those who go OTD without a valid defense. I am certain that when I was a Hasidic mother in the community, the article in the New York Post would have strengthened my sense of solidarity with the community, this feeling that the outside world does not “get us,” doesn’t care to “get us,” is gullible and susceptible to buying into cliches with enthusiasm and unquestioning faith in its messenger.
If I would be convinced that a blasting exposé to secular readers would results in something more than balm on our own anger, something concrete and positive, I would be very grateful for the work Feldman has done. But I am not feeling optimistic, if this is only an exercise in beating away at the Hasidic community with a big stick of angry attacks.
Leah Vincent: There are two issues you mention here, Shpitzle, that I want to pick up on: First – who has the right to advocate for change, and second, whether or not Deborah’s advocacy is effective.
Regarding the first – if only insiders have the right, what should one do if insiders are not making use of that right? Do we – or any outsider, no matter how removed from that world – have any obligation to help clear victims* of that society? And doesn’t someone who was raised in that community have some right to be critical, some legitimacy to advocate for change?
And as to whether or not Deborah’s route is effective – without disagreeing with you, I’m curious – what alternative technique do you think would be effective for someone in Deborah’s position?
* Without going down the rabbit hole of cultural relativism, I think there are at least some abuses we can all agree are clearly wrong.
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind: Leah, [you wrote]: “There are two issues you mention here, Shpitzle, that I want to pick up on: who has a right to advocate for change, and whether or not Deborah’s advocacy is effective.”
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. The issues I raised were only in how change should be advocated and whether Deborah’s advocacy is effective.
Anyone can advocate for change. The way I think change should happen is in conjunction with the community, working with people from within, from the fringes, or from the outside. If the world knows, but the Chasidic world doesn’t, what changes? If we sling random insults in a race to garner as much media publicity as possible, you essentially lose all your sympathy from people from the community. Catchy phrases like “rolled up nightgown” and “curfews” bodes well for gaining an audience through the media, but it has no message whatsoever for those to whom this is a part of daily life.
Which brings me to your second question: I am certain she could have been effective if she had been honest, descriptive, and aimed for accuracy. There are important ideas that get lost in the sensationalized narrative.
Zelda Deutch: I think writing a book is a very effective way to advocate for change. Why are children encouraged to read books? Why do people read in general? To acquire knowledge. And with knowledge comes the power to make a difference. Whether Deborah is in a position to educate people and to promote change is a good question. My personal opinion is that the book may be too hurried, maybe she wrote it too soon after leaving. That said, she felt ready to write it, and it seems like she had a burning desire to get her story out there. I don’t question her right to write a book. My worry is more about the content. I have to agree with Shpitzle, when people in the community read a book that they feel portrays them inaccurately and has some clearly questionable statements, it only solidifies their belief that they are right and nothing needs to change. And those living on the fence might start doubting whether their issues with the Orthodox lifestyle are valid. I disagree, though, that change needs to come exclusively from within. I think after so many years of things being swept under the rug, it’s time to realize that change from within is minute to non-existent.
Leah, I think people who have left the community definitely have a right to tell their story, even if it is highly critical. Especially in cases of abuse, it can be helpful and spread a powerful message.
Shulem Deen: Zelda – Question for you – and others can chime in…
On the surface, all of us here should be on Feldman’s side; one would think we’re all fighting the same fight. But judging from many conversations I’ve had in recent days, there are many negative reactions to some of the articles/interviews. One almost gets the sense that many of us have suddenly forgotten that we too have spent years with all these restrictions and actively rebelled against them.
Leah raised the issue of envy, which I find interesting, but I wonder if that oversimplifies it. There have been articles about many, many who’ve left the fold, but few have generated anything near the heated reactions that Feldman’s has. Another person mentioned the fact that Feldman presents herself as a “trailblazer” when so many others have done it with equal or greater challenges, with even more harrowing stories, and have done so while extending enormous support to others.
So what do you think is driving the negative responses? Is it just the distortions? Is it it envy? Something else?
Zelda Deutch: I think most people are mature and smart enough to praise a good book. The zinger here, the feelings boiling up in people is frustration, I think. There are so many who have left that have interesting stories. As I mentioned before, growing up in Orthodox / ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities and then stepping away from them leaves most of us with a suitcase full of stories involving love, tradition, pain, innocence, horror, the gamut of experiences and emotions. When people read these interviews, the hype, the exaggerations, it’s frustrating because most stories about leaving the community are seriously deep and moving. There is no need for embellishments.
Many of us have been out for a long time, have been to hell and back, and here comes someone straight off the boat who feels she is ready to write a book and is already an expert on all things OTD. I think that’s what bothers many people. At least that is what bothers me.
I’m not sure about anyone else, but I do feel it odd that Deborah considers herself a trailblazer. She’s not the first one to have done it. Many people I know have done it before her, and still others have done it before them.
But in the end, even with all the questions about the book, I do feel that we need to be on Deborah’s side. She may not have done it in the most graceful way, but I’m hoping her intentions are good.
Baal Devarim: What is driving the negative responses? I say: what does it matter? Complete objectivity is a myth in any case. As much as those of us who have made major changes in our life — to the great consternation of our friends and family — would like to think otherwise, we are no Mr. Spock. We may be driven mainly by cool-headed logic, but of course we also deal with emotions such as envy and jealousy and lust and empathy and anger and hate and love, besides for hurt pride and feelings of being violated and the need for our “true” struggles to be heard and the hell of uncertainty and the precariousness of our tenuous relationship to our (former) community. But again, so what? Why does it matter besides for the comforting ability to sling some ad hominem remarks at us that it may provide?
What matters is this: are the negative responses justified? Are the criticisms true and fair? And as far as I can judge the answer is: yes. For as far as I can tell not only does her telling of her experiences lack nuance, but the book would never countenance nuance even if it were the only lifeboat available aboard the sinking costa orthodoxia.
And that brings me to the next point. Many of us hope and wish for change in the Hasidic culture. We may still be – partially or completely – stuck in it, or we may have kids growing up there, or we may have family there, or we may have a feeling of nostalgia or of caring or of true concern for the people in our former lives. And for change to happen we need an honest and open discussion of the issues, which this book isn’t. The interviews so far read like someone telling a breathless story of human sacrifice and rape by pineapples and Hasidic baby-blood spilling in doctorless flophouses (while everyone knows we only spill Christian blood for the matzos!).
Unfortunately, distortions like these overshadow the very many truths that are undoubtedly in the book as well – truths that need to be told and discussed and argued about if we have any hope of affecting meaningful change. As it is, the book provides a too-easy target for ridicule and is very susceptible to simple hand-waving and to charges of vindictive mendaciousness – whether true in any particular instance or not.
If only we could uphold it as a standard bearer for the painful truth! For in reality the facts are much less bawdy but much sadder in the long term than these outrageous tales (again, even if these bawdy tales may, in fact, be true in some particular instances). The lack of preparedness for facing the outside world, the awfully, awfully inadequate education provided to our children, the way any attempt at individuality is cruelly and painfully crushed and rooted out, the way anyone with an above average need or aspiration or aptitude or curiosity for philosophy or science or the arts or for expressing themselves ultimately is in danger of finding themselves emotionally choked and silenced. All by the subtle and not-so-subtle pressure to conform and fit in the community mold.
And then there is the painful issue with the way children are often wielded as a weapon and as a vicious form of blackmail above the heads of those parents who dare not to conform to strict community norms – not to mention those who dare leave or even speak out about the desire to leave. This contributes to our stories pain and struggle and emotional (and sometimes physical) distress – stories that beg to be told honestly, with the nuance and the terrifying grayness of reality fully intact and without it being completely overshadowed by wildly excessive exaggerations and outright lies. For how else to explain the feelings we have, the suffering and happiness and disillusionment and life-long nostalgia of struggling to leave such a terribly terribly rotten and darkly and hauntingly beautiful culture?
Shulem Deen: As we know, the world of ex-Chasidim is fairly small, with many of us knowing each other to varying degrees. Many of us can imagine quite well what Feldman has been through, and I’m sure most of us can relate to her story when reflecting on our own experiences and our often-fraught journeys away from our roots. Should we, therefore, seek to protect Feldman as one of our own in order to “keep the peace in the family”? Should we suppress criticism, even if warranted, just so that we all get along?
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind: Being supportive and being critical are not mutually exclusive. The view that we can’t criticize what we support is the view I went to great pains to free myself from. It rings with deja vu of frum defenses. Honest conversation, a well formulated argument, an opposing opinion that isn’t dipped in the stew of ad hominems – these make up the very essence of the freedom we so prize.
I was supportive of Feldman. I was excited when she was signed for the book and I was always inspired by her vision, her ambition and her thick skin. I appreciate that her book is reigniting all of our appetites for Internet debate. But at the same time, I’m critical of her; for writing with lack of accuracy, for rejecting open conversation (she has bullied those who’ve criticized her), and for claiming herself the Messiah of frum women, while I have yet to see how she has helped the frum community beyond giving the women on ImAMother.com a dead horse to beat.
Is it always us versus them, the OTD versus the frum, and we now need to defend our own honor? Have I been boxed into a new loyalty, namely the OTD camp? I hope not. I cherish pluralism. I don’t divide my world into OTD vs. frum, placing myself militantly on the OTD side of the fence. I don’t automatically agree with everyone who is OTD. Besides, who is OTD? The line is unclear – there are so many sitting somewhere on the wide fence. Perhaps I’m also too sentimental and forgiving. I appreciate open-mindedness and personality, and I appreciate it regardless of whether I agree with anyone’s religious beliefs.
I would also like to add that I’ve since gotten to know Feldman’s ex-husband, who has, like her, left the community. Her harsh and mean-spirited depictions of him and their story don’t match at all with what I know to be true. This leaves me very skeptical of many of her other bold claims.
Zelda Deutsch: I don’t think it’s fair to ask people to withhold their criticism and opinions in order for the ex-Orthodox community to be all kumbaya. After all, most of us come from a place in which criticism is frowned upon, we don’t want to recreate that in our current lives. However, while we are surely not obligated to do so, I do feel that there will probably be enough substance in the book for us to stand by her. At least I hope so. And by that I mean defending the essence of her experience; she did, after all, grow up in a Satmar community and left, and had the ability and right to publish a book. Even if it presents the community and her family in a bad light.
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind: Zelda, I agree with so much you say!
I do agree that we need to try to support each other, although we all know that we’re a critical bunch. We are unforgiving of our own mistakes, and we have a hard time with others’ shortcomings too. My experiences trying to do some writing in the past has left me hurt and frustrated by the lack of cushy support. The nitpicking and attacks often come from those on your side of the argument.
But that is who we are, in essence. We’re not a community who covers up for our own, we don’t hide and work on facades. We splash things out in the open. We don’t have big rugs or vacum cleaners or dining rooms. (Wait! Where was I?) We don’t sugarcoat. We debate, argue, disagree. But ultimately, despite the lack of support-group-style communication, we do create a really significant and supportive community. For all the ribbing, I have always felt a strong sense of belonging to a very present OTD community.
So perhaps we should abandon tiptoeing, put praise where praise is due, and criticism where criticism is due? Feldman deserves both. What’s more, her success doesn’t hinge on our support.
Zelda Deutsch: My gut reaction when I read the Post article was, why is this woman twisting the truth and making a mockery of those of us who have worked incredibly hard to leave the community and rebuild our lives. I felt in several of the articles that were written about her that she comes across very childlike and somewhat dishonest. There are a few reasons why I decided to cut her some slack. First, I realized that many people were attacking her simply on the basis of her writing a book and exposing her family and the community to shame. I feel very strongly that she has a right to publish a book about her life, and I felt the need to defend her on that. Second, she did write a book and somehow managed to get it published by a major publisher. Based on that I’m hoping that the interviews and promotions for the book don’t entirely reflect its contents. In order to get this far, wouldn’t her book need to have some serious substance, and at a minimum be well-written? Also, although some of us might feel that she is embellishing the truth – or even worse, lying – we all, as I mentioned before, experience our environments differently. Maybe some of what she’s saying is really as she experienced it.
Leah Vincent: I respect and agree with a lot of the other points made here by you all: a sense that Feldman is mismanaging a very intense and personal pain that we share with her, a fear about her exaggerations discrediting all of us, a disgust with what some might perceive as blatant self-interest that sullies the urgent social issues we are concerned with, a scorn for her apparent positioning as the only one who has been courageous and left, which seems almost to erase us and our stories.
Shulem Deen: Some in our community have sometimes remarked about a certain attitude on Feldman’s part, there being a sense that she’s snubbed the community of other former Hasidim by seeking to set herself apart. Do you think that’s a fair accusation, and do you think that might be one reason why even those who’ve made similar journeys are disdainful of her work?
I am reminded of something she wrote in an article published in The Guardian:
“Now there is an entire generation of young Hasids chafing against rules that are impossible to follow in an increasingly seductive wave of new modernity… I like to think that I am a little different from the others, who sneak out so they can partake in all that is sleazy and salacious. Strip clubs aren’t my scene and I don’t really like the idea of altering my reality with drugs. I prefer poetry slams and karaoke.”
Any comments on this?
Zelda Deutsch: There are people of all types leaving the Orthodox community. Yes, there are some looking to have a good time, hanging out at clubs and maybe experimenting with risky behavior such as drug use. Then there are the ones who dabble in the outside world trying to figure out what it’s all about, living the double life, unsure if it’s even possible for them to leave. Then there are those who choose to leave, want to live decent, happy lives according to their wants, needs and morals. Most of the people in the OTD community I associate with belong to the latter two. If she thinks she’s that different from others leaving the fold, maybe she needs to find a new crowd to hang out with.
Leah Vincent: I wonder if her attitude also springs from something else: as children we are all presented with a very strong message that all those who leave the religious community are “losers,” “druggies,” etc… I wonder if she is wrestling with that idea in her protestations.
Zelda Deutsch: Of course. We are told that most who leave are losers who are busy sleeping around, eating bacon, and shooting up drugs. It’s very likely that those are the things she’s basing her statements on. As someone who has already left the community I would think she would have figured out by now that it’s not the case.
Shulem Deen: So you think she has a need to portray all other ex-Hasidim that way in order to redeem herself?
Leah Vincent: Perhaps, or perhaps she simply hasn’t reexamined that fallacy. I know there are a lot of ideas that were tattooed into my brain by my community of origin that I found hard to shake, even when the evidence indicated the opposite.
Baal Devarim: Yes, her holding herself out as some sort of “candle in the dark” is ridiculous on its face. She is no trailblazer and no spokesperson – or at least I’d hope we can come up with a better one. Yes, it is grating and amusing (and sometimes infuriating) that she holds herself out as such.
However, Leah is right in her observations that many of us have internalized what we’ve heard countless times growing up – that those who leave are inevitably losers and bums and drug-addicts and prostitutes (or the eager clients of prostitutes). I’ve had this discussion many times with people who left or want to leave; their eager and earnest assurances that – unlike, they’re absolutely sure, most others – they have come to their decision honestly and not out of unquenchable lust for drugs and sex. After a while it gets tiring and absurdly tragicomic.
Given that, and combined with Deborah’s obviously finely-honed instinct for self-promotion, she can be forgiven for some of those ridiculous comments. If only she’d manage to do it without stepping on others, I’d be happy.
I’d like to add, though: my intention is not at all to minimize the undoubtedly very painful and brave journey she undertook and continues to travel. My beef is with the way the story is being told and marketed, not with the way it is being lived.
Shulem Deen: I want to bring into this discussion the murder story that BD mentioned in passing above.
Here’s a quote from a recent article in the Jewish Week:
What about the shocking allegation, late in the book, that a Rockland County emergency ambulance service covered up a grisly murder in which a father cut off his son’s penis and slit the boy’s throat with a jigsaw?
“I’m not a liar and would never make something up for the sake of sensationalizing… I put it in because I felt obligated.”
Even if we don’t have access to credible sources about the story, one has to wonder about her willingness to put out shockingly sensational stories for which there are – to the best of my knowledge – no credible ways to substantiate them. (My impression is that her knowledge does not come from a credible news source or from the results of a criminal investigation.)
Does this say anything about the tone of her book, and do you think this will/should put her credibility in question?
Baal Devarim: In this specific so-called “murder” case, I happen to have personal knowledge of the story and I know, beyond all reasonable doubt, that this was an unfortunate suicide by a very, very mentally disturbed individual. Claiming that this boy’s father cut off his son’s penis and then murdered him is an appalling libel, which will probably cause untold pain to an already hurting family – and why? It would fit nicely into some twisted horror novel banking on the prurient sensibilities of its readership; it should have no place in something pretending to be a serious memoir with pretensions to being even more than that.
So yes, of course it should put her credibility in question. But for me personally it actually answers the question of her credibility, not the other way around.
Leah Vincent: I haven’t read the book, so just going off of what I can put together. My sense is that this is her impression of the incident. She isn’t claiming to be an investigative journalist, she is telling the story of her life. Hell, if I believed that story to be true I’d put it out there! The frum world has definitely swept plenty of crimes under the carpet and personally, it fills me with such rage I understand the urge to scream out against the secret atrocities one knows about. Of course, if she is willfully lying, that’s unforgivable.
Zelda Deutsch: I’m very hesitant to comment on this. I hadn’t even heard about this story until yesterday, and have no other information besides for what she says. This is a very serious allegation. Does she provide any evidence in the book to support it? I’ve learned from experience that there are a thousand versions of every story, but usually only a handful of people who know the truth. I agree, there are way too many crimes being swept under the rug in the community. That still doesn’t make it acceptable for her to single out one particular family as an example. What if she is wrong? There are an incredible amount of unreported crimes in the community, for many of which the details are out in the open and fairly well known. There is no need to dig up stories that don’t hold up under scrutiny or to invent stories entirely. If she has strong proof to support her claim then I understand why she would put that out there. But judging from her questionable interview answers…..I guess we’ll have to wait until the book comes out.
Shulem Deen: Any final remarks?
Zelda Deutsch: Here’s to hoping that the press articles and interviews don’t reflect the contents of the book. Maybe the Post did twist her words, an assertion of hers that I have just read. Here’s to hoping her book is factual, thought-provoking, and an interesting read overall. I hope she proves those of us who have questions wrong. I hope her book is a success and sheds light on all the right issues plaguing that shtetl some of us used to call home.
Leah Vincent: I’m excited that a book exposing some of the ugly sides of ultra-Orthodox Jewish life is receiving so much attention. It would be an appalling shame if she has lied about important elements of her story, but I do respect Feldman’s right to be angry, critical, and even sensationalist in her book and in her efforts to promote it.
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind: I have no doubt that Deborah has experienced enormous pain and a lot of her anger is valid. We all feel that way, and we’ve all experienced it. I may not have sympathy for how she tells her story, but I do have a lot of sympathy for what she has been through.
Baal Devarim: I’d like to second both Zelda and Shpitzle. Here’s to hoping the book is different than the interviews so far. And what’s more, I do have sympathy for the hurt and pain of the journey she’s traveling – a pain I understand all too well. I can also empathize with the bitter, roiling anger many of us experience. But in the end I do not think anyone should be immune to fair criticism, and I think truth (and nothing but) is always paramount.
*
Zelda Deutch grew up in the Hasidic community of Satmar in Williamsburg. She left the Orthodox world about 10 years ago and now lives in South Jersey with her two children.
Baal Devarim was born and raised in one of the chasidishest communities but — barring any unfortunate or fortunate accidents — will absolutely not die there. He is the author of the blog The Other Side.
Shpitzle Shtrimpkind is the author of the Shpitzle Shtrimpkind blog and a cartoonist at Oy Vey Cartoons.
Leah Vincent is the fifth of eleven children from a yeshivish family. She has a Master’s in Public Policy from Harvard University and is Unpious.com’s Senior Editor.
Printable Version
Okay – this piece is waaaaay too long to read in one sitting. However, a couple of things that relate to Deborah Feldman’s allegations:
1. Chasidishe kids don’t wear seat belts. Drive around Monsey and see. Chasidishe parents hold babies and toddlers in their laps and don’t use proper car seats, too. It may not be pandemic, but it’s certainly apparent, empirically, to any casual observer. Look at chasidishe schoolbuses, too, while you’re at it.
2. Chasidishe parents don’t take kids to doctors. This may or may not be factual, but I’ve read teshuvos from chasidishe poskim who say that doctors are menuvalim and kofrim and true god-fearing Jews should avoid them whenever possible. This also ties into point 3:
3. Chasidishe communities cover up crimes. This is 100% factual. I can’t comment on grisly murders, but there’s a reason that New Square, for example, has a “burn lady” and a “wound-healing gemach” and “ershte hilf” even beyond Hatzolah.
My point is that, even if we haven’t seen some of these things first-hand, we should not discount Deborah Feldman’s accounts. In my experience (and this has been corroborated by medical and mental health professionals who serve the chasidishe community), things are far, far worse than we think.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
19
Assuming that the claims that “UnOrthodox” contains exaggerations running into untruths are validated, how awful is that? Is hyperbole all that bad if through an outrageous book, attention is brought to the evil of the Hasidic world? I agree with many of the concerns above and that Feldman’s book may have many deep faults that I’m glad are addressed by this roundtable discussion. But IMO regarding the book; if it succeeds in highlighting negative aspects of Orthodoxy that triumphs any of the book’s flaws. I am deeply troubled by the fact that American culture treats Orthodoxy as a slightly eccentric but lovable and beautiful society. “UnOrthodox” will go a ways into exposing the corruption and evil that is that society and that fact, for me, overrides the negative aspects of the book.
Like this comment?
4
Let’s say I would write a book about how much abuse I suffered growing up in an agnostic/Chrisitian family in surburban New York. And there was plenty. And how glad I am that I ran away to become a Jew. Would I get the attention and credibility Feldman is getting in the media? And if not, why not? This is just the latest blood libel. Protocols of the Elders of Zion was based on a book written by a Jewish apostate.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
14
The four horsemen discussing the apocalyptic, and the elephant in the room is that you are, all of you gifted writers. Many of us have at some point or another I suspect, contemplated writing this book and here Deborah is, having actually written it.
Deborah writes well I am sure, but it is precisely because her book, which I hasten to add I have not read, is sensational that it has achieved such instant success. And credit where credit is due for her intuition and for her finding her niche.
There probably is collateral damage here, which is not at all to be trivialised, but she has the right to hurt, to offend and to suffer the consequences, if not to slander.
The good news is that the other book we all wish to read has yet to be written, and let it be written.. Over to you Shulem Deen.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
9
A Great round-table discussion, and credit for even greater balance to the overall view.
I think there are 2 main issues at hand; the serious issue is the egregious and serious defamation of a innocent and suffering person, and how this reflects on the character of the defamer, the less important issue is the effects this will have on the struggle of the OTD community to make an impact.
The first speaks to the core of what all of us hold sacred – the human condition. This is an example of someone who was from within and knows better, was the author of this horrific rumour in the first place, and is now viciously and “safely” advancing – what I can only equate to a blood-libel – in the form of a book. The fact that she propagates this fabrication in her pre-release publicity, betrays her real motives and speak volumes as to her shallow character.
This tragic event was well known, as was the mental state of this unfortunate boy and the really kind and pleasant nature of the afflicted family in question. Any person with enough intelligence to get a book published by a respected publishing house, cannot claim incomprehension of the seriousness of such allegations. And her answer that “she would not lie” only serves to eliminate any excuses of “mere exaggeration or carelessness”. Such vicious disregard for human feelings, particularly when in service of advancing one’s own agenda, is the sole prerogative of Nasty selfish people. Not even “regular” selfish people.
Which brings me to the other point; that of how this is likely to affect the rest of the OTD community.
As is well portrayed above, we are already fighting all sorts of prejudice, ranging from ruthless witch-hunts, to “nebech lost/ Crazy”, to “bitter/bum”, to “must be mekarev”, etc. Our struggle is to bring acceptance to the ostracized, relief to the oppressed, and a voice of reason to willing listeners inside. We ought to preach what we practice, and contrast respectable human right values against the excesses that people of religion feel “entitled” to hold as true and right. We are hence appealing to the senses of logic and of justice.
Such obvious viciousness might play well to the outside who are eager on a good Taliban story in amongst our own western society, but has the absolute reverse effect inside. This pure hatred and vengeance is so transparent, and not only presents us with a completely indefensible situation, but will surely reinforce stereotyping of all sorts for ALL of us! Whether out or in the closet.
How can we preach humanity and demand the human rights of those persecuted by the “righteous lot”, when “us all” are similarly vicious and wilfully so? How can we claim moral superiority when “all of us” are stooping to such vile lows? How can we champion the voice of reason when “all of us” can be so absurd?
I feel sick! One the one hand I heartily welcome anything that casts light on the oppressive uniformity and complete absence of freedom of thought, speech and deed in our communities, on the other hand I also appreciate the gentle kindness and balance of affording Feldman her due recognition for her struggles, vilification and sacrifice. Yet I cannot shake off the feeling that she really doesn’t deserve what she herself has not accorded to others, regardless on which side of the fence they stand. In addition I think that the gravity, viciousness and selfish nature of this libellous section precludes any possible mitigation of “its an expression/ symptom of her great suffering”.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
20
As a complete outsider, secular and all, who has never before heard about Deborah Feldman, I read this very interesting discussion and thought it illuminated some interesting points, plus I respect the opinion of the commenters and moderator based on what they have authored here on this website previously.
Then I clicked on the link to The Post and read her interview there. Scratching my head I decided to click on the other link to Jewish Week and read that too. Hummm. Ok, let me check her website. So I watch her little video of herself.
Ok, so thank goodness for Leah Vincent who seems to me the only level headed person here on this particular discussion. From this outsider point-of view here, the rest of the commenters do come across, well, just bitter. IMHO, unnecessarily alarmed. Give the secular readers some credit, I am not gonna take some murder story as the be all of Frum society. Whether it was a murder or suicide surely needs to be answered, but she is not writing a book about that death is she? it’s something that is part of her memoir, as such we readers assume it is not the actual official record of the event. And all the other minor complaints, I dunno, like I said, it sounds like a bunch of bitterness.
But genius acknowledgment to Shulem for giving the book PR in an interesting way. Like I said, I had never heard of the woman, and now I’ve even seen her website’s video. Can’t say I’ll buy the book only because this is not my typical kindle download. But, as far as generating buzz for the book, Good for her and for Unpious!
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
11
>it’s something that is part of her memoir, as such we readers assume it is not the actual official record of the event.
To Feldman’s accusations if they are indeed baseless, which they probably are, alarm is rather well appropriated. Bishrirus’s comment is shocking, alarming and evocative. He seems to be acquainted with the potential for hurt her mendacious smears, if that it what they are, may have, and he seems to be saying that she is also the primary source for the murder allegation.
Perhaps for someone like Bishrirus it does not matter whether or not readers assume her version of this particular story to be the official record, perhaps indeed this shouldn’t really be about Feldman and her book, but about the pain and suffering compounded upon by a book, in a tragic set of circumstances for an affected family?
Yes she does have the right to offend but not to slander, and I do so hope there is another more mature and responsible book in the offing.
Like this comment?
3
This book title should be called “UnSatmared” not “UnOrthodox” as Orthodox is a very broad term.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
6
> …we are already fighting all sorts of prejudice, ranging from ruthless witch-hunts, to “nebech lost/ Crazy”, to “bitter/bum”, to “must be mekarev”, etc. Our struggle is to bring acceptance to the ostracized, relief to the oppressed, and a voice of reason to willing listeners inside.
Well said. This is one of the motivations behind the series I did on my blog called “Better Know a Kofer”.
Like this comment?
1
At this point I don’t even know whether to laugh or cry. First I will address the premise of the roundtable about bringing change to the community that they left. I am a history buff and I always try to go back to history in order to try to predict the future. There has never been in history a time when outsiders were able to cause change in the Jewish community in a voluntary fashion. The only time in recent history that we can find change from the outside was in Russia – but it was by force. The rest of the time, change came from the inside. However, right now it looks like we are back to where we started. Those who changed are nowhere to be found and those who didn’t change are back in control. Call it what you will but these are historical facts.
To our day, at a time when most people who supposedly need to be changed are not going to read her book, let alone know who she is, for someone like her or her supporters to claim that she is going to effect change, one must be delusional.
Finally, when I studied public speaking, I was told not to insult my audience because then they will be turned off and my message will be lost. This is true even for things that are true. To simply make up stories and lie about things is a sure way to become ignored and marginalized and it flies in the face of the argument of effecting change. I didn’t read her book and I wouldn’t buy it. I may borrow it, but certainly not patronize her. I suspect that she only wants to sell books and keep the change and I will not be part of it.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
Just watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b98ch_Pyi-Y
I think we have a similar case with this book
Like this comment?
1
What I’m REALLY interested to see is a continuation of this discussion after our debaters have finished reading the book!
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
7
I just wanna second Pen T’s idea. I think the time has come for a book to be written by a genuine ‘Unpious’ style author. We’ve seen Shalom Auslander’s stuff. We’re about to see Deborah Feldman’s stuff. A lot of us have even seen Hella Winston’s book. But what I would really REALLY love to see is a book written by a fair, balanced, well-spoken Unpious ex-Frum individual. I think that the amount of appeal that such a book would generate has been underrated by our own community, thus far. There are so many books out there about Christians who have left the faith (and even some atheists who have joined it), and I think the world still views Orthodox Judaism as being quite mysterious, and would love to read about it from someone who isn’t preaching at them from within. Please, Unpious editors/authors! Someone step up! Make us proud!
Like this comment?
4
I understand but resent the notion that as soon as one puts a book out with a major publisher about one’s own, deeply personal experience, one becomes an automatic “spokesperson” for all who apparently have a similar biography (i.e. left charedi life). I also was a bit turned off by the interviews cited above but have read the book and it didn’t read as accusingly, I found it an almost matter-of-fact account of her life.. My favorite passages I had already read years ago on her blog but I also am impressed with her bravery and passionate determination to turn things around for her child when she was basically still a child herself. Many people have told me over the years to “write a book” and I think the biggest struggle with writing something balanced can be that if you are still in two clashing worlds trying to gain your own balance. I know that for myself, I am hesitant to write my children’s story before it writes itself, so to speak. Yes, I have left in many ways and am at pretty peaceful terms with being intermarried but raising my children shomer mitzvos with all my heart while always reminding them there is more than one way for everything. It is a daily undertaking and I don’t necessarily feel the same way about it every day (I might cry tears of happiness and gratitude at my son’s beautiful davening or siddur party but be annoyed when my daughter is ignored at a lunch’s farher) and once you write something, certainly a book, it is all so locked in place. I always think about writing more, and I do, especially for my kids, but not sure that it;s totally fair to the kids while I try to raise them with a love for Torah if I am going to be totally honest in my writing. Does anyone else feel that?
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
8
Very well-rounded and well-balanced discussion. Kudos to Shulem, Leah, BD, Shpitzle, and Zelda!
One point that seemed glossed-over in the attempt to decipher whether Deborah Feldman’s book can affect change in the Chasidic, given its shortcomings, or whether her imperfect honesty tarnishes the images of others in the OTD community, is whether Deborah Feldman sees it from this perspective. Perhaps the abovementioned points are moot, and Ms. Feldman neither cares to affect change in the Hasidic community, nor sees herself as a member of the OTD community, and the book serves no other purpose other than Deborah’s agenda to get ahead in life and community be damned, it’s all collateral damage.
That’s the great beauty of a “memoir” – nobody can argue with you over the veracity of it, because it’s how the writer remembers things, or perceived things, it’s not a scholarly work that is subject to fact-checking, research, or peer review. A memoir is essentially Andy Warhol’s allotment of 15 minutes of fame for anyone who desires so.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
1. Chasidishe kids don’t wear seat belts. Drive around Monsey and see. Chasidishe parents hold babies and toddlers in their laps and don’t use proper car seats, too. It may not be pandemic, but it’s certainly apparent, empirically, to any casual observer. Look at chasidishe schoolbuses, too, while you’re at it.
2. Chasidishe parents don’t take kids to doctors. This may or may not be factual, but I’ve read teshuvos from chasidishe poskim who say that doctors are menuvalim and kofrim and true god-fearing Jews should avoid them whenever possible. This also ties into point 3:
3. Chasidishe communities cover up crimes. This is 100% factual. I can’t comment on grisly murders, but there’s a reason that New Square, for example, has a “burn lady” and a “wound-healing gemach” and “ershte hilf” even beyond Hatzolah.
My point is that, even if we haven’t seen some of these things first-hand, we should not discount Deborah Feldman’s accounts. In my experience (and this has been corroborated by medical and mental health professionals who serve the chasidishe community), things are far, far worse than we think.
1. The one person I’m sure drove with her baby on her lap is definitely NOT chassidish, unless you count her shaved-head period. You need to provide evidence to prove that considering age/income/education brackets, the Chasidic community is less concerned about automobile safety than other segments of the population.
I essentially agree with you that people aren’t careful enough, but I don’t think God has anything to do with it. It’s simple human oversight, carelessness, or lack of education.
Points 2 and 3: These are so far off-base, as to be off the map. AFAIK, about one-half of the community spends its time sitting at the doctors’ office, going for every sneeze and cough. Much of this owes to the fact that ahem, Medicaid is free and the co-payments max out at $3. So really, if we were going to discuss something, something of importance, that’s where I’d start, because the endemic dependence on government assistance, whether fraudulently or kosher-ly, is a terrible thing for the chassidic community.
The second half patronize the burn lady, the wound-healing gemach, the homeopath, the chiropractor, and the snake-oil seller. You can go conspiracy-theorist because it’s a lot more fun, but the real reason underlying this is not child abuse, but IGNORANCE. The lack of education, the absolute void of scientific understanding, means that an inordinate number of relatively worldly, otherwise-intelligent people know so little about modern medicine as to mistrust it or deem it inferior to alternative medicine.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
11
Just finished reading the book. I think this whole conversation should have not been held here before reading the actual book. The book is well written not exaggerated or embblished at all she portrays Williamsburg as it is and even more liberal as I know it. Nothing of the negative semi-lies discussed in the interviews are in the book The book does not give a reader a negetive view about Chasidic life to the contrary. I see the pre-release interviews are not what the book is about at all. (save a few minur details, I never heard Roizy Satmar R’ Yoelish’s daughter to be pushed down steps to her deathe weeks before giving birth and Devoiry could not remember the cup cake lady either. The only story I may have an issue is the story with the suicide but she just writes that her ex husband told her hewas told so by a Hatzalah member and he doubted the story. Also the way she treats her ex may not be very fair to him.) I think a typical Bais Ruchel girl reading the book would be deeply effected for the better. The bigger part of the book is a narrative by a Satmar school girl going through challenges every Chasidic girl can identify with to degree going through from school, the pre & after marriage process etc.
I too was enraged by reading the reviews but after acutely reading the book I am positive about it.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
11
I found the book very interesting. I have no religious affiliation.What I found most disturbing is that women are not encouraged to be educated and are expected to have several children and in general don’t seem to have any say in their futures. Abuse happens in families everywhere and this is her story . I didn’t leaving feeling it was the Hasidic story. Lack of choices for women are tolerated in many religions. As someone outside of her community I do not generalize all of what she says but respect that this was her experience.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
7
Velvel, I agree with you that everyone should have read the book before this discussion. I pre-ordered it and received it Friday and read it over Shabbos so it was available..or this discussion could have been delayed until everyone was caught up to speed. Shulem, Shpitzle, Zelda, Baal Devarim and Leah, please update your thoughts and share your feedback!
Like this comment?
4
Velvel — The book really is different from its pre-release publicity. But that’s exactly the point; whatever the book’s merits, the publicity around it has had some very questionable aspects, IMO. And those deserve to be discussed.
Wendy — Not sure why this is a “women’s” issue. While a Hasidic girl’s education may not be entirely adequate, and is certainly far from robust, it is lightyears ahead of that of boys, who often receive almost no secular education to speak of at all. And Hasidic boys have no more say in their future than girls do.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
9
I have not read the book, but just watched her interview on The View. Deborah looked and sounded good, but several things she said did not sit well with me. She said that most Hasidic girls will graduate high school at 16 or so at a 4′th grade reading level. That got me pretty worked up. Girls, 4′th grade?! No way. Most Williamsburg girls’ schools don’t participate in Regents or give high school diplomas, but curriculum-wise, girls could easily ace the GED or other standardized tests at least at an 8′th grade level. She also said that after she moved to a more liberal Jewish community (Airmont?) and enrolled in Sarah Lawrence College, she was afraid to tell people because they would pressure her to drop out. This may have been true of Williamsburg, where a college education is frowned upon, at the least, but is not true of more liberal frum communities upstate.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
7
Shulem Deen Your point is well taken. Do you feel this makes for an opportunity to discuss lack of quality education or more of a united stand for tradition. I grew up in a university town where my impression of Jews was they valued education, their children , and encouraged their daughters to be independent.
Like this comment?
2
Skeleton, the book is much better then I’d ever expect from her by readinh her blog (HF) over the years and by the interviews she does now,obviously the publishing company did a lot for the book she wouldn’t do herself. I’d agree with you Chasidic girls graduate with a decent English I find them to lack a certain basic finish though. DF writes about the liberal Airmont community where she could do anything, she says she was pressured by her ex and family.
Just an example, there’s was qrgument above about her saying in the interviews Chasidic girls can’t eat out go out etc. while in the book she tells about her success as a English teacher in BR Satmar while eating out all the time in Cafe on Lee with Mindy another teacher with whom she went to Imex theater and listend to FM Radio with read books etc. all as a Satmer teacher not that scary.
Like this comment?
2
The author clearly overstepped any writing ethics that exist. From
making libellous claims to smearing and bashing all of Judaism as a
whole.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not affiliate with Judaism at all, I don’t
see myself as part of the community since I left it and I don’t think
I can speak on their behalf, but from my present outside perspective,
one can’t paintbrush an entire community with ones own personal
experience. And for sure, no one should fabricate vicious rumors on
people, especially when they went through some very unfortunate
situations. People simply cannot expect to get away with it nowadays.
Whatever a book like that is trying to accomplish, one thing for sure
is that it would make a great read for haters and self-hating Jews, as
far removed as I’m from Judaism and same goes for other people who’ve
accomplished to build their new lives without dragging along their old
baggage, a book that cant make its statement without resorting to
blatant lies, serves no purpose.
Like this comment?
3
Wendy — “ Do you feel this makes for an opportunity to discuss lack of quality education or more of a united stand for tradition.”
I’m not sure Deborah’s book will do much for either, certainly not on its own. There have been individuals working to effect change for a while on several fronts, and I hope she takes this opportunity to sign on to various efforts already in place.
As for Jews valuing education, that’s probably true, but in the ultra-religious community it manifests as dedication to religious studies, not secular knowledge.
Skeleton — I, too, thought the “4th-grade reading level” was badly put. I really wonder why Feldman feels this incessant need to over-dramatize. (I do think “4th-grade reading level” would be true for many men, though, so perhaps she’s only seeking to conflate the experiences of both genders… Although not sure if that makes it any better…)
Like this comment?
1
Skeleton, the book is much better then I’d ever expect from her by readinh her blog (HF) over the years and by the interviews she does now,obviously the publishing company did a lot for the book she wouldn’t do herself. I’d agree with you Chasidic girls graduate with a decent English I find them to lack a certain basic finish though.
Velvel, I will hold off further critique until I read the book. You’re right that most girls lack literary “polish”, which is probably due to the narrowness of the school’s English curriculum (e.g. no coverage of the classics) and the reading restrictions at home (no secular books, only English Judaica books, and most of those aren’t exactly literary classics).
I do think “4th-grade reading level” would be true for many men, though, so perhaps she’s only seeking to conflate the experiences of both genders… Although not sure if that makes it any better…
Shulem, the men “graduate” with a 2nd grade proficiency level, if they’re lucky
But in the interview she was specifically speaking about girls’ education, not boys.
Like this comment?
2
Skeleton — “ But in the interview she was specifically speaking about girls’ education, not boys.”
I realize that. I was trying to be kind, although it did unsettle me. In the past, too, Deborah wrote about coming from a “black and white” world (she was referring to the men’s garb), where it was said that “bright colours were the work of the devil.” And I couldn’t help feeling that she was trying to blend the experiences of men into her own in a way that was less than forthright. (Fine, red or hot pink are no-no’s, but that hardly confines you to black and white…)
The same is true for where she mentions how different she is from other ex-Chasidim, saying how others leave in order to freely seek out strip clubs and porn rags but she prefers literature and poetry, etc. I couldn’t help thinking then, Really? You don’t care for strip clubs? What an utterly evolved female! Setting aside the inherent self-aggrandizement of claiming that kind of uniqueness, easy access to strip clubs and porn rags, even if true as a motivator for men (a big if), is not true for the typical OTD woman.
Like this comment?
4
This all just sounds like a new Vicki Polin and Awareness Center.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Awareness_Center
I bet Stormfront will do a review.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t805058/
Like this comment?
1
…and the above ^^^ (Shulem’s comment) is exactly why I am nervous about Ms. Feldman being seen as a kind of spokesperson for the OTD community.
Like this comment?
2
Interesting that you chose to have a conversation about the marketing and publicity around the book rather than the book itself. I feel you should reserve so much harsh judgment on the author and her truthfulness until you actually read the book. A memoir presents the truth as the author experiences it. It might not be your truth. But you should have the full picture.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
Feldman is currently working on the first novel in a series about crime in the Hasidic community that is based on real-life characters and events, and is due out from Soho Press in Autumn 2012.
http://www.deborahfeldman.com/about-me.php
She should become a full time consultant for stormfront.org
Like this comment?
3
Had she at least attempted to balance her many chapters filled with negativity by pointing to some of the many virtues and benefits existing in her former lifestyle and admit that even though she doesn’t agree or believe or doesn’t have innate discipline, there’s much to be admired in this lifestyle and it has many gainful attributes, she might have deserved some respect. After all even a broken clock is right twice a day. Orthodoxy has to have some advantages, even to those who choose not to practice. Personally, I believe there are many advantages even in Chassidism, even though I’m very far from Chassidic.
No such thing. In her eyes, the Orthodox lifestyle is all nonsense. She really doesn’t differentiate between Chassidism and modern day Orthodoxy, whose followers go to Mikva, as well, but are mostly highly educated with advanced degrees. There are great differences. She feels she’s the brilliant enlightened heroine, who can transform the lives of everyone who is religious and naive, if they’d only experience the sweetness of her freedom. She has the key to the door of true happiness.
I pity her for her pain and confusion and newfound aimless free fun, but I pity her son more, for having to live with and learn life’s lessons from a hateful, guiltless, vengeful person, who smugly chooses to mock and ridicule. Id love to read a book authored by her son in future years, detailing what it was like growing up with her as a mother. It would be especially interesting if he ever decides to be religious. It could happen. The BT movement is alive and kicking, mostly with highly educated and intellectual advocates.
With all this she hopes to come out looking like a saviour for her efforts. A modern day saint.
No, this is not a book limited to her personal troubled saga, this book details her perceptions of an entire community, as if most in the community secretly agree with her and are envious of what she’s become. Her income perhaps, otherwise, no. Not true.
Had she or the publishers clearly stated that the “facts” offered in the book relate to her family only, that might have been different. Wouldnt have sold too many copies though. Multiple reviewers have pointed out the many exaggerations and untruths.
Kardashian she’s not. No beauty. Not her fault, not her choice.
Einstein she’s not. No genius. Not her fault, not her choice.
Joan Rivers she’s not. No comedienne. Not her fault, not her choice.
Just a babbling buffoon, a seethingly hateful person whose uppermost goal is fun.
And that IS her choice.
She is an example of what not to become, what not to aspire to be, capitalizing on hate, mockery, meanness and exaggeration.
Like this comment?
4
Yes, she’s entitled to her memory and to publish it, even as they diverge from fact. However, I wonder how the DF fans explain the sharp criticisms I’ve heard by friends of mine who personally befriended and helped DF along her way to ‘emancipation’. These are people with no connection to Haredism/ Orthodoxy/Hasidism at all; namely, ‘secular-from-birth’ and pure bred gentiles (and these aren’t Oprahs searching for frilly fillings for air time). They criticize her character as a person and the veracity many details in her story, parts which they themselves witnessed differently than her records.
Don’t even mention the ambivalence of the OTD community toward DF; partly due to their inclination to truth and honesty, partly, perhaps due DF’s setting herself as the cover-girl for proper OTDness which many feel she’s far from, amongst other reasons.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
6
There’s something I really do not understand. Many, many articles on this site are extremely negative about the chasidish lifestyle. The commenters are. The entire tone of the site is. Yet when someone says the exact same things in a book as the things that are said here, everyone gets upset. Basically everything she said in the interview about chasidim is familiar to me, partly because I have Chasidish relatives, but mostly because of what I’ve read here on this site.
Like this comment?
3
Where are her parents today? What sort of mental illness does her father have? Is her mother orthodox? Are they supportive?
Like this comment?
1
Thank you all for this meaningful discussion. My impression of Deborah Feldman, and her titillating tales among other shallow fables by the aforementioned poet’s road to secularization, completely seems to mirror the depth of shallowness in her former community’s spirituality.
In my view however, the biggest crime, indeed, the harshest indictment against her former community, is just looking at the entire Deborah Feldman picture.
Did Deborah go to a doctor to treat strep or not- is not the question. The real question, the real tragedy is that because of the community and it’s foolishness, it’s fairly apparent that from the moment Deborah was abandoned by her mother, the “as(s)kunim” or her family did not find it necessary for little Deborah to receive psychological counseling. That IS abuse. That IS criminal. To allow a young child who would be considered severely malnourished in any normal community… in terms of her most basic primal needs. A mentally challenged father, abandoned by a runaway mother, this little girl was placed with survivors, AND SURVIVED!
Yes, such deprivation feels ugly to me. This is anti Jewish in my book. What’s with this stigma bullshit….
this moronic obsession with “shideechem”. Really? Isn’t there an announcement 40 days before you were born “bas ploini l’ploini”? Or is that something you say but dont really believe?
I say lay off D. Feldman. Meritorious or not, and her stand alone fables, yep,
Deborah Feldman’s bubeh maases [or is it masses of boobs] are a searing indictment on this house of cards.
Like this comment?
4
For those interested, here’s a very thoughtful review by Joe Winkler over at Jewcy, which is very much in line with my own thinking:
Making Sense of Deborah Feldman and Post-Hasidim Memoirs
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
8
I think it has already begun. http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/breaking_news/unorthodox_authors_claim_murder_cover_up_rebutted
I just hope that one of the people she slandered and libeled takes her to the cleaners.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
6
“I say lay off D. Feldman. Meritorious or not, and her stand alone fables, yep,
Deborah Feldman’s bubeh maases [or is it masses of boobs] are a searing indictment on this house of cards”.
Oh, so the community where abuse occurs most is the Chassidic community? “this” house of cards???
And that gives her the license to smear the entire community. She didnt write one letter about the do-gooders of the community. Even as an outsider, I know there are plenty. Maybe more could have been done. Hindsight is 20/20.
Similarly, we now have to excuse Levi Aron, and suck up to everything he says and writes, and all the hundreds of thousands of murderers from all different walks of life, if they had a troubled pasts?
I aint electing you no politician, judge, or jailhouse guard, my bleeding heart softie! Stick to blog-writing!
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
5
Abe,
Respectfully, I’ll attempt to rephrase: I’m saying that you don’t need to even open her book to see her for the damaged goods she is, quite unlike the rational OTDers on this roundtable board. Is there any question that she’s
spinning tall tales and repeating those spun by others? NO question! This is my point. What we are all cringing about
Is what she is saying as opposed to the community that presented us with this specimen.
Dosn’t it hurt to see this wounded soul rolling around on the floor, her arrow ridden heart resembling a seamstresses pin cushion. Of course she’s not “well” adjusted. Of course she’s acting out. Of course she’s being a selfish brat. The message to insular communities is, that you guys CREATED these people. I’m not saying there’s no good in the community. I AM saying that on the whole, it’s an untruthful community. It’s a community run by men with heads permanently embedded in an undisclosed location, a place where the sun don’t shine. The community leaders are spineless. If they were politicians I could see them campaigning on a pandering platform with “positions”, and “strongly held conviction” to be firmly against “whacking any female over the age 68 with a blunt object”.
So yeah, I can look past DF’s Lying raging rampages and focus on her creators. A house of cards that proves unable to sustain even a slight breeze.
Let alone hurricane Deborah
Like this comment?
2
What would be interesting to read would be a book by someone who dropped into something, not merely a drop out. In words someone who is leading a successful, productive life in the secular world for as long as they had been orthodox and who can make reasonable comparison between the two.
Also, is it just me, but I don’t see her having large breasts in her photos.
Like this comment?
1
“If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.”
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Like this comment?
2
“The message to insular communities is, that you guys CREATED these people”.
“Those guys” created no more and no less of those people than the world at large. To say they did, is bigotry of the first degree, and no less an exaggeration than Deborah’s entire dumb book, which would have been more accurately titled “Un Satmar” (the name of the Chassidic sect she comes from)! Naming it “Un Orthodox” is a wild leap from the truth, being that Orthodox people are very highly educated and very worldly and very different from the people she describes. As different as Christians are from Moonies.
Simon & Schuster: what fell on you folks?
Like this comment?
1
Bought her book, not as a show of support, but plainly out of curiosity.
Like this comment?
1
You guys, I think, are missing the point by taking Feldman WAY too seriously and giving her too much credit. Change? Really? You think THAT’S what she’s after?
I see her as a young soul who left the community with a story to tell, and is simply trying to capitalize on it. Her reputation and credibility is not all that important to her at this point in her life. She’s what, 26? Think about it: had she released a book without all those exaggerations, would it have created the same media sensation? Would we be talking about it with such intensity? Surely not. Something tells me her publicist had a good amount of input as to what should be amplified and exaggerated. At a minimum, give her credit for knowing how to choose a publicist. She managed to be covered by every major tabloid and made it on to The View! (That’s no small feat). All this doesn’t justify what she did, but if you look at it from that viewpoint, and if you’re able to see the real motive behind this, perhaps you won’t be as frustrated. I too was frustrated till I got to watch her interview on The View. What I realized then was that she’s too smart to just pretend that all these things are facts. There’s gotta be an ulterior motive there, which I suspect is the money and publicity.
Prediction: this is nothing more than 15 minutes of fame, and she soon will be forgotten. I suspect she and her publicist know that too, which is why they don’t care about the lies and exaggerations.
Just my two cents.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
6
“this is nothing more than 15 minutes of fame”
Definitely. She has no credible evidence of wide spread, major crimes.
Like this comment?
1
Ahhh, Abe,
You and I do indeed agree on something.
I appreciate you succinctly verbalizing my exact sentiments when you say, quote; “those guys” created “no more” and “no less” of those people then the world at large, end quote.
Exactly Abe! There is good everywhere and bad everywhere. The OTDers recognize this being the case and say to themselves that they may as well enjoy their personal freedom, their rights to become educated in a setting of their choosing, the right to love a person of ones choosing, the right to exist in their G-D given skin without being considered an “artistic weirdo” etc etc.
Having granted you the argument that there’s good and bad everywhere, it is worth noting that when the “bad” is ruthlessly dispensed wrapped in Torah piety, chassidus or G-D, that combo emits a particularly rancid stench. Especially to one who is expected to come along for the ride.
As a caste in back of the bus.
Like this comment?
1
I read the first three chapters of book. I am really disappointed that she just shows a blatant disregard for truth and accuracy. When writing a book, even a memoir, you have to try, at last, to be truthful and accurate. So far whatever is verifiable in her book is either false or inaccurate. The big one is the story of the homicide cover up in KJ. Another is what I read from someone about the story with the fish in New Square which she put the story at around 9/11/01, when the facts are it was two years later and was reported by the NYT on 3/2003. I didn’t get to those portions yet. Mostly what I read is what she says and may or may not have happened. One of the things that annoyed me was that she writes about he symbol of the palm tree saying that in German a palm tree is called Teitelabaum. I thought interesting, why not just say in Yiddish a palm tree is called Teitlebaum? I thought maybe she wants to be more accurate about the source of the word. So look up palm tree in German and nothing even resembling Teitelbaum. The translation is “Palme.” I know this is nitpicking. However, when you make stark allegations against thousands of people you have to be accurate. If she would have been a witness, no jury would ever believe her with a record like this.
Like this comment?
4
Let me start by congratulating Shulem Deen for bringing this panel of scholars to a “Roundtable” discussion. I have read most of the comments by the participants. I’m impressed by the fact that there is a consensus that this “Memoir” is not a factual, objective (I’ll take that back. It can not and must not be objective.) recollection of events in the life of the author. The only debate is, as to the degree of any semblance to the truth it contains. In my humble opinion, it does not –and didn’t set out to– strive for any of the goals and objectives that SD has enumerated in his preamble. It is not even a vindictive work. It is purely a collection of (And I, like most of the participants haven’t read the book, yet. Only by the hype and (Negative) publicity surrounding the publishing event.)excuses for personal discontent and failure. As I’ve written somewhere else in the Blogosphere. I have first hand knowledge of the author’s family. This is not an ad hominem attack. Just a correction of some already revealed misstatement of facts. She (The author) attributes most of her problems growing up to the mental incapacity of her father. Without offering an evaluation, I will say that it is a gross exaggeration. Indeed, the root of her childhood problems lay in the fact that she had a dysfunctional mother. Thus, she ended up in the care of her grandparents, who doted on her.
Like this comment?
1
Let me offer a very brief retort to Apikores al Haesh (Oy, Halevai. Just kidding.) Points 1 & 2 that you raise, are so ridiculous. And are already tackled by other posters. I have nothing to add. Point # 3, though, is indicative of a severe case of Paranoia. Also, it gives me insight as to how the infamous, Historic Blood libel came about.
Like this comment?
1
“they may as well enjoy their personal freedom(for instance- sex with a new partner as often as one chooses??? If Im wrong about the transalation, please offer your own), their rights to become educated in a setting of their choosing(HUH, no problem with that!!! People of all branches of Orthodoxy have gone to almost every existent school!!!), the right to love a person of ones choosing (giving in to their desires and impulses as DF does with her book, for 15 minutes or days of fame/enjoyment, as opposed to building families???), the right to exist in their G-D given skin without being considered an “artistic weirdo” etc etc” (G-d given skin, or unique choices??? Why would anyone want to live a lifestyle where normal people might consider them weirdos???).
Like this comment?
1
What’s telling to me is the response to her book. The Amazon reviews are being manipulated by an activist group in order to lower the ratings. They are spamming the site with negative reviews. I wonder how many of them even read the book. Addtionally they are working as a coordinated group to reduce the credibility of positive reviews by labeling such as “not helpful.”
To my mind, regardless of factual inaccuracies regarding the murder, this substantiates many of her claims. It lends credibility to her contentions that this is a community that will tolerate no deviation, no dissension and no internal criticism.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
9
To SkepticalYid on February 20, 2012 at 6:14 pm
“They are spamming the site with negative reviews…..”.
How can you even attempt to convince anyone that Chassidim/Orthodox individuals, a very small percentage of the world’s English language reading public, can control Amazon ratings? Anyone who believes that, must be smoking something really strong or has the unfortunate brainpower of the average Footstepper.
Like this comment?
1
I thought Hasidic women don’t go online?.
Like this comment?
1
The reviews are probably being orchestra from a loonie fringe of imam other members who posted a ton of anonymous, hysteria-laden threads then started a blog to “expose” Deborah Feldman. Even other imam other members think they’re nuts.
http://imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=177085
Like this comment?
1
That should be “imamother” members, of course. DYAC. *sigh*
Like this comment?
1
from: http://www.deborahfeldmanexposed.com. Update: I’m trying to find out more details who was responsible for sending Deborah to public school.
Update II: We were able to confirm that Deborah spent most of her youth outside of Satmar Schools. She went to public school for a couple of years and went to the less-strict Vien school for some other years.
Update III: A reader comments:
Stating a fact. Suri Berkowitz ( Deborah Feldmam) went to vein school up until the third grade. She came into satmar school in the seventh or eighth grade…….. Rumor has it tha between these two schools she went to a school in manhattan where her mom sent her
Update IV: Confirmed through many sources: Deborah Feldman came into Satmar only in September 1997 when she was already 12 or 13 years of age. She spent not more than four years of her youth in a Satmar school. She omitted this information from her book. This is a very serious issue, taking in consideration that she is making outrageous claims about how ignorant she was because of her Satmar education.
Another reader comments:
I used to live on The Lower East Side where my daughter’s attended Bais Yaakov there. I remember Sarah’la Berkowitz aka Deborah Feldman also went to that school. I remember seeing her mother bring there on several occasions as well.
It’s unbelievable what that bi*ch did and how much she lied! One thing a can tell you for sure; her next book won’t be published by Simon and Schuster.
Like this comment?
1
Is the behavior of Jack Lew, an Orthodox Jew who is Obama’s Chief of Staff, and Senator Lieberman, two people very much in the public eye, typical of the Orthodox people said author describes in her book UnOrthodox? Are their lives backward and their women imprisoned as well? Or are they perhaps exceptional Orthodox people, different than all the Orthodox doctors, lawyers, scientists, judges, etc out there, who are perhaps backward, as the author portrays?
Throw that question to the poor souls at Footsteps. Id like to see how many Footsteppers will rise to the heights of most Orthodox people.
Like this comment?
1
MUST TO SEE http://deborah-feldman-exposed.blogspot.com/
Like this comment?
1
this book is now celebrated by Mr Michael Hoffman who is a rabid Racists and Holocaust Denier in the ranks of David Duke and Aryan nations, Very sad:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R11OCFL8OLHVNB/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1439187002&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful
Like this comment?
1
http://exposingotds.blogspot.com/
Enjoy…
Like this comment?
1
Are we talking about the Satmar? One of the most insular and oppressive subcultures in America today? Are we taking about their RACISM? Xenophobia? Chauvinism? Abuse of women?
Are we talking about their political savvy and the fact that they always vote “en bloc” – thereby extracting all kinds of “little favors” from NYC mayors, from Koch to Giuliani to Bloomberg?
Are we talking about the twisting of the state laws in the case of Kiriyas Joel (shall we open the Pandora’s Box called “The Case of Special Education” under a certain Mr. Pataki???)
Shall we talk about the gross abuse of the state welfare system?
COME ON, then! STOP nitpicking and get to the core of the matter. That Feldman might have exaggerated here and there is irrelevant to the CORE ISSUE AT HAND: the existence of a medieval, monstrously cruel subculture that thrives only a couple of miles from the City Hall in 2012!!! And while politicians of all stripes are beating their drums over the suffering of women in Afghanistan, NOT ONE of them has had the guts to say ONE word about the abuse of women just across the Williamsburg Bridge.
Cheers, New York. And you ladies too.
Like this comment?
4
Talmudic Academy Alumnus, are you saying that all Satmar folk are crooked and backward?
Is it specifically Satmar Hasids you dislike or do you dislike all Hasids?
Is it all observant Jews you dislike, or only the ultra religious among them?
Is it only Jews you dislike or other people who believe in a higher authority, as well?
Are you saying that those of other ethnic or religious groups dont pander to politicians and vote en bloc?
Based on your name and brilliant thoughts, I suspect youre a Footstepsorg graduate (many never graduate, they stay on to inculcate new bigots with your above seething hatred, and encourage hate and immorality, and call it freedom).
Mr.Talmudic Academy Alumnus Fighter for womens rights:
If you truly are looking to help crusade for women’s rights, why not start with the incomparably more egregious tragedy, the beheading of women in public squares, in the Middle East and beyond, regularly carried out for suspicion of unfaithfulness or even having been raped? This, for simple suspicion, no proof needed, of having dishonored their families that way.
http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-h…
What have you done in this regard?
You smokin’ something, five star bigot?
Like this comment?
1
Nice Unorthodox review in the Pesach Shabbos Blettel by D. Zicherman. Mentions this discussion. http://shabbosblettel.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/shabbos-blettel-91.pdf
Like this comment?
1