Opinion
Ex-Orthodox Narratives: Are they all the same?
If there exists a single inalienable right of the artist, it is the right to tell his or her own story, and ex-Haredim, if events of recent months are any indication, have begun exercising that right with enthusiasm. From print media to radio to television, these stories are being told and retold, testing the public’s appetite and tolerance for a new, and perhaps soon-to-be-over-saturated, genre. While the influx of these stories promises something new, they also deliver something that at times feels repetitive, the same narrative arc, from first secular book to first cheeseburger, endlessly recycled rather than reinvented. Perhaps, then, it is time for a re-evaluation of the theme.
Tales of struggle in which ultimate redemption comes from the telling of the tale itself—which is true for many of the ex-Orthodox narratives—are not new. The most memorable encounter of such was, for me, in the book “Push” by Sapphire. It was the Summer of 2010, and the book’s film adaptation, “Precious,” was then playing in theaters. At the time, I was balancing summer courses, an internship, and a weekend job, so when I had a rare day off, I chose to indulge in what a friend called a “light read,” and picked up the book. At the Lincoln Center courtyard I sat down on a bench facing the angular void between the Metropolitan Opera building and the home of the New York City Ballet. Legs folded beneath me, I curled the soft cover of the book into the palm of my left hand, and found a quote from the Talmud on the very first page:
“Every blade of grass has its Angel that bends over it and whispers: ‘Grow, grow.’”
I was surprised to see the Talmud quoted there, a familiar face in a book in which I expected a world of strangers. I knew the outlines of the story: a young African American girl named Precious who was raped and impregnated by her father. I expected to read with voyeuristic interest, looking in on an experience so vastly removed from my own. Yet there, setting the tone for the pages to come, was a quote I had heard many times throughout my Hasidic childhood.
Much like the marathon Talmud study sessions of my yeshiva days, I finished the book in one sitting. The book ends with Precious, HIV-positive and mother of two children by her own father, joining a support group, making up for her missed education, and writing poetry. Despite the unforgiving world presented in the book’s pages, Precious’s sense of redemption and triumph was palpable.
Precious couldn’t undo anything that had happened to her, but Precious’s triumph, like the triumph of many heroes and heroines of literature who lived to tell the tale of their journey, rested on the idea that creating and formulating your own personal narrative is the ultimate expression of freedom and empowerment. That all the struggles and hardships experienced along the way are given meaning when they are part of your own final story.
Releasing the back cover from the tight clasp of my thumb and forefinger, I got up from the bench and walked towards the circular fountain in the center of the courtyard. With shows about to begin, ticketholders began filing into the open space in pairs of two, heading towards the theatres at the three sides of the plaza.
Rethinking the story, I thought about how Precious’s desire to tell her tale is both the desire of every artist and also the desire of every human being with personal experiences and insights. And it is that same desire on the part of many ex-Orthodox individuals that has brought their stories to a wider audience. What seduces these storytellers to tell of their experiences is the knowledge that others would give up something of their own, either money or time, to read or to listen to their personal narratives of struggle and redemption. Perhaps, then, the quote from the Talmud at the beginning of the book was wrong. What every blade of grass wants to hear is not an angel whispering, “Grow, grow,” but an audience cheering, “Congratulations, you have grown.”
And that, I see now, is where this desire, like every other deep desire, has its dangerous slope. The ex-Orthodox archetype that the media demands, and which we have been eager to feed, is the same blade of grass grown with the same formula; the skeptical child that becomes the eager library visitor that becomes the carnivorous porcine enthusiast. These stories give us an opportunity to hear an audience say, “Congratulations, you have grown,” but they offer only tales whose characters are fungible and whose events are simple variations on a single theme. These stories don’t tell those who struggle with finding their own narratives, the growing blades of grass that haven’t yet determined which way to bend, that their own stories, with their own unique memories of their pasts and hopes for their futures, those stories, too, can be written and told.
In our desire to broaden our audience we must be cautious not to narrow our voices. Too often, our tales descend quickly to the banal drama of buying our first pairs of jeans, or of wondering who the hell the Beatles were, or any of the other shared experiences of encountering for the first time that which most people take for granted. These episodes are often designed to capture the outsider’s fascination, but contain, in the larger journey, only a blip of significance. As a result, the tales of our journeys feel as if they are dictated by the outsider’s fascination rather than by the complexity of each storyteller’s unique experiences.
When the movie “Precious” was nominated for an Academy Award (along with “The Blind Side,” another story about a young struggling African American kid), Cornel West, the noted scholar and Princeton University professor, remarked, “With all the richness in black life right now… the only thing Hollywood gives us is black pathology.” What he meant was that all these stories, while, ostensibly, reflective of the lives of contemporary African Americans, are more specifically about what is wrong and faulty in those lives rather than what is rich and nuanced and multi-faceted. Perhaps a similar concern can be said of the emerging portrayals of ex-Hasidic life, especially as our stories move to television audiences, where the entertainment value lies in showing our pathologies rather than celebrating our often chaotic journeys that don’t necessarily provide made-for-TV moments. The narrative of struggle, of individual quests for meaning and personal identity, of pursuing dreams and making tough choices, risks being replaced with the pursuit of cheap laughs at those who get it wrong. To paraphrase Dr. West: With all the richness in ex-Orthodox lives… what we are given is ex-Orthodox pathology.
Perhaps, as we tell our stories, we should try to be less like the blades of grass quoted from the Talmud and more like the bent over angels doing the whispering. By now, the formulaic version of how an ex-Orthodox grass grows has been told and retold many times; from chulent to cheeseburger, from sex in the dark to sex in the park. It is time to tell the story of how different and how bendable every blade of grass is and its unique potential for being not one among indistinguishable blades but with its own characteristics and variations, with its own speckles of brown and the heights to which it alone strives. Perhaps even, our stories can shift from being the recycled description of the vulnerable and pitiful strands of grass we have been portraying, to being like the bent over angels that whisper, “Grow, grow.”
It was these two words that I most longed to hear that evening as I stood near the Lincoln Center fountain preparing to leave. The performances inside the theatres surrounding the plaza soon reached intermission, and the open-air terraces above began to fill with theatre-goers enjoying the cool summer night air, leaning against the railings, champagne flutes sparkling against the lights of the plaza. Returning my book to my backpack, I realized how, like the strict ultra-Orthodox life and like the media portrayal of the ex-ultra Orthodox experience, these performances, too, tell carefully orchestrated tales to captivated audiences. What none of them have is someone, without a preconceived idea of what a story should be like, who would bend over and whisper to the boy silently leaving the plaza: “Grow, grow.”
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Wonderfully written, and very very thoughtfully presented. Thank you! (Just had to write, not to congratulate, but to inform you of a certain resonance generated from your words.)
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Well said, as always. I do think that this website has at times been able to move in that direction, in publishing stories that move away from the typical narrative.
Though it has been kind of quiet lately…as an occasional contributor, I suppose that may be my fault as much as anyone else’s!
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What bothers me about these narratives is not so much that they are so similar, but that they often seem so immature. I’m all for people being allowed to leave for whatever reasons they want, but when I hear frum expatriates say things like, “I was angry at my parents for depriving me of bacon.” or “I was 19 years old, and I had never heard of Celine Dion!” or other such comments, it doesn’t make me very interested in hearing the rest of their story.
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Herb – this is so true. I find it insulting that the atrocities that the frum community commits are encapsulated in silly statements of depriving bacon and slaying their sons for masturbating. This is a disgrace for the OTD community. I believe the only solution lies in the hands of the more open-minded OTD’s to let their stories be released to the public. I hope they are doing something about it, for time is running out.
Beautifully written, Sam.
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Not that anybody cares, but the talmud actually says, “There is no grass below that does not have angel above that strikes it and says, ‘grow!’”
Strike, whisper. Bend over, call down from heaven. Whatever. as long as it’s a good story, right?
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you’re right nobody does care! and it doesn’t alter the meaning of the sentence. gtfo
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This is beautiful, Sam, and so very thoughtful. I love the comparison of the black American narrative to the ex-Hasidic experience, and that you took up multiplicity and the all-too-common essentialization of ethnic/religious/cultural groups in this country. The quote from Dr. West is particularly well used and poignant. Thanks for writing this!
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stickler stickler:
Who says no one cares? Is precision really such a bad thing?
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Where I’m at, the only “angels” I seem to hear are big and hairy. They also don’t whisper- theyre rather gruff.
My only familiarity with this Talmudic narrative is the terrifying visual of “bending over” with one o’ them “angels”
behind me.
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Stickler — I think it bears pointing out that since Sam was tying it all to a lesson from the book “Push,” it is fair that he quoted it as it is quoted there. (I checked it.) But thanks for noting it.
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Eloquent and beautiful. Well said
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I love this essay! If you substitute Mennonite in the essay for all the references to Orthodox, you could be telling my story as I grapple with memoir writing. The same master narrative of lighting out for the territories also exists in the Mennonite world. I want to tell a different story. The story of one who stays when all the doors are open to her leaving. And grows. Without asking for congratulations.
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What needs to be stressed more in this article is the fact that becoming an ex-Orthodox is simply non-heroic. It sorely lacks the energy and passion of its flip side, the secular liberal who becomes Orthodox. That is a much more deep and engaging struggle as one has to fight with every fiber of ones being to lift oneself out of the culture, habits and mindset of ones entire life.
The Baal Teshuvahs depth of character is the heroism that we should be celebrating. To live a Torah life and then become a secular liberal or just to simply head into McDonalds or liberal college course does not exactly qualify as difficult. It is merely an instinctive indulgence that then turns into a pathology. Once you do it a few times it becomes as if it is permitted. The struggle fades and it does not require the strength of character, both physically and mentally that the true Baal Teshuva attains in his/her life change. It is far from heroic. It is at best an acquiescence to mediocrity.
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Emes Rocker — Assign yourself heroics if you’d like, but it’s amazing how you deign to speak for anyone but yourself.
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Shulem
We could argue back and forth on this but if you ponder deeply what I wrote minus your emotional need to justify yourself, you will see that the depth and heroism of someone coming to Yiddishkeit from the total opposite western world is endlessly more enriching, engaging and psychologically challenging than someone who just decides to clip his peyos and join the other 99% of people in mainstream society. Not only are the Chareidim leaving the fold stories non-heroic but even more so they are dreadfully boring. To go from 1% to 99% is a concession, not a battle. To go from 99% to 1% requires emotional muscle and bravery that is very rare.
It would be more interesting to become a Buddhist Monk meditating at an ashram in Southeast Asia than to walk through NYC with your head uncovered and your mind so open that your brain falls out as you stumble into the abyss.
Ponder this my friend and may G-d guide your steps back to the beautiful world of your forefathers.
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Emes Rocker — We couldn’t really argue back and forth, actually. Because we speak a different language. Yours is the one of baseless assertions that suit your worldview, and mine is, well, just of a different sort. So no point arguing the actual issue. But that’s ok. I don’t expect you to understand this. You seem really attached to the feel good nonsense you tell yourself; knock yourself out.
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I speak the language of victory, growth, positivism,and striving for greatness. You speak the language of victimization, pain, negativity and ambivalence.
One of us is in the dark.
I will choose to be on the same team as Rashi, Maimonides, Maharal, The Arizal, the Baal Shem Tov, The Chasam Sofer, Rav Akiva Eiger, The Chofetz Chaim and Rav Moshe Feinstein.
If you have found better I would be glad to meet them. Perhaps you can invite me to meet some of your mentors and we can compare notes.
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Nope. You speak the language of smug self-righteousness, and appalling ignorance of the varieties of individual experience. That’s pretty much it.
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Why isn’t a more heroic choice than becoming a BT a frum person becoming a meshumad? Think of what obstacles a meshumad faces for his convictions. And talk about dislocation.
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> “…someone who just decides to clip his peyos and join the other 99% of people in mainstream society…”
Yes, if this is indeed all there is to one who is leaving, you’d be right that it’s nothing very admirable. But this is no more true than saying that one who becomes frum is just growing some payos, changing his dress, and joining a new group to feel special about himself. If you think that choosing to go against a lifetime of indoctrination, taking a step that costs one their family, resisting incredible social pressure, and moving into a world that one is both unprepared for and in many ways deeply frightened of, is not “a battle, deeply heroic, psychologically challenging, enriching, etc.”, then you’re simply deluded.
The fact is that on both sides of the divide there are both boring stories of conformity, and brave stories of courage.
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> “I will choose to be on the same team as Rashi, Maimonides, Maharal, The Arizal, the Baal Shem Tov, The Chasam Sofer, Rav Akiva Eiger, The Chofetz Chaim and Rav Moshe Feinstein…Perhaps you can invite me to meet some of your mentors and we can compare notes.”
It’s kind of funny that all your “mentors” are long dead and buried. Not too surprising.
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Ha’maven yavin…The chassidim and orthodox are so secularized these days that to leave and become “officially” secular is kids play. To leave the secular world and to actually earnestly attempt to keep the Torah in a pure and undiluted way is a whole other level. B’makom baalei teshuvah omdin, ain tzaddikim omdin (Kol Shichain the currently non-tzaddikim on this site)
Please list some of your mentors. I would be more than happy to compare and contrast them with mine. If they are intellectually/morally superior I will admit I was wrong. I just want the EMES. Nothing else.
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EMES – if all our journeys, on either side of the equation were characterized by searching for Emes, like yours, I believe the world would be in much better shape. Unfortunately, having coached those on all ends of the spectrum I have to agree with you that those who choose to leave the fold generally do so in pursuit of material pleasures and abandonment of boundaries, while those who ultimately found yiddeshkeit found it in their quest for the truth
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Emes Rocker, Do you collect Gedolim cards? I’ll trade you the Vitshnitzer Rebbe for The Rav Chaim Kanievski. I am not sure that the BT narrative is intrinsically more interesting or courageous—it depends. Tachlis, the piece asked a valid question about “narrative.” I understand the distaste for whining and the notion of victim but I am not convinced even that precludes the question poised. And I am less convinced this author commits that particular offense. I don’t see it. The whole Romanization of the forefathers is just that, idealized—they were human. It is dangerous to exalt people because the flip side is to denigrate others. Along a similar line the cliché that people leave, to eat treif and screw shitkas has it polar opposite, people stay because they are OCD or brain washed. You really feel like that you want to embrace either one of those types of thinking?
If you see the list of the Gedolim, (which reads like my teenager’s idea of who’s who), as a team meaning a winner or a loser this is very disturbing. To compare some of todays Rebbes, who parade around in full regalia, to Rashi is like comparing Mozart to Lady Gaga. Don’t kid yourself; nobody leaves to go to McDonalds although they may hit the drive through. Bottom line—there are true believers, non-believers, and make believers and the world will keep on spinning.
To return to the question, narrative is on some level about language–what you have written only serves as a troubling example of hasty conclusions, and thus begs the question the writer asks. Maybe when the writer moves forward and addresses the question you would chap that people do not leave to go to solely to have sex with chazers and eat shitkzas, as the old Yeshiva joke says. As for BT’s anyone with half a brain knows that we inside the frum community need BT’s en masse because we have little education and few skills. So I for one welcome you with open arms.
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“I speak the language of victory, growth, positivism,and striving for greatness. You speak the language of victimization, pain, negativity and ambivalence.
One of us is in the dark.”
Yes – one of you is in the dark. It isn’t Shulem.
The self-righteousness of the frum, like their evangelical counterparts, never ceases to be tiresome. You people need to get yourselves some new material. Oh, wait – “Everything new is forbidden”. Never mind.
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I realize that this site caters to the Laitzonim HaDor. Therefore any serious thing that I write will just be mocked. I don’t take it personally. I can laugh even though sometimes on this site I want to cry.
There are two types of people. Those who are searching for the truth and those who are not. It does not matter what color hat or type of clothes they are wearing. If one is sincerely looking for truth and is willing to put aside their personal tastes, traumas and tendencies, it is right in front of you. If you want to remain ambivalent there is always plenty of time to waste. If you want to exercise your freewill to the fullest extent and taste freedom you can. If you want to close that part of you down and shrink your reach to that of every other mammal that is also an option.
Here is a poem by the great Mike Scott which many here might find helpful. It deals with the idea that no one is stuck. We can always grow and change. We may have felt pain, trouble in the past but we don’t have to remain there. We can break free.
[Moderator's comment: Full text of poem removed for needless clutter. Emes Rocker -- please provide a link that users can follow instead of pasting lengthy poems and song lyrics of questionable relevance. Thanks. -SD]
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> Please list some of your mentors. I would be more than happy to compare and contrast them with mine.
That is such a typical frum response. “My gedolim are bigger than your gedolim! I win!”
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Well do you have a better barometer of greatness?
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> I just want the EMES. Nothing else.
Emes Rocker, I’m always impressed with people who are so fully committed to the truth above all else.
As someone who “just wants the EMES, nothing more” I assume that you’ve spent considerable time investigating all the different religions and philosophies out there with the same objectivity and rigor which you apply to Judaism, and not formed your opinion of them based solely on what people from outside those movements have to say about it. Is that right?
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I’m really not sure what your point is. There are men of both moral and intellectual greatness in every culture and era. So what? And what bearing does some random historical persons greatness in one particular area have on my life?
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I have studied many of the major religions of the world. I have spent time with leading physicians and scientists in my professional career. I have known Prime Ministers, Senators and governors and major media figures personally.
I have also BH learned a lot of Torah as it is my passion and main source of intellectual, spiritual and behavioral stimulation.
Do I know everything? NO! Do I understand everything? NO! However, I humbly believe I have full intellectual justification for subscribing to and attempting to practice the worldview of the above mentioned Sages.
I realize Shulem and the other agents of the sutton here on this site have come up with quasi-intellectual reasons for their atheism but I have found them largely to be hollow, shallow attempts to cover up their desires for things the Torah prohibits. It’s an old story. Jews have destroyed themselves in every generation. 4/5ths wanted to stay in Egypt. Typically these estranged Jews feel the need to write books, newspapers and now blogs discussing and celebrating their activities to help quell the hole and the pain they feel in their kishkes. (c’mon laitzonim fire away!)
As I have told Shulem in the past, if you really wanted out of the whole Jewish thing, you would not have this blog. Its a sign that there is a still a spark in you that wants to connect to Am Yisroel.
Personally I would like to see Shulem take up something more productive like water painting, origami or knitting but he seems to be OCD in his quest to be front row center in gehennom.
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EMES ROCKER! YOU’RE BACK! I was getting worried we lost you! Whew. THANK YOU JESUS. THANK YOU KRISHNA. THANK YOU MARDUK. You guys rock.
But seriously, Emes Rocker, I know this isn’t a time for humor. (Was just real happy to see you. Hehe.) But oy, I have nothing but compassion for you. (I’m not using ‘pity’, because, well, that’s a bit condescending, no? I don’t, Sutton forbid, want to condescend.) But I’ve told you this before, and I’ll tell you again: your pain breaks my heart. To be living in a world where you’re taught to revere a bunch of medieval (and very dead) old men. I can only imagine what that does to a person.
But my friend, it doesn’t have to be that way. Free yourself! Experience the bliss of knowing that ancient superstitions are just that. Free you mind, free your body, and you will realize the beauty and wonder of doing an aveirah! You may have done aveiros in the past, but THAT’S NOTHING compared to doing aveiros after you’re FRUM! Yes, it’s only a cheeseburger. But AH — it’s a sweet and heavenly cheeseburger! After 3,000 years of being deprived of cheeseburgers, there’s something so tremendously liberating and exalting in the quarter pounder! Also, we’re now free to screw around anytime with whomever we want (consenting human adults, of course) and to enjoy the pleasures of our bodies without worrying about some God tsk-tsking that it’s not the right person, that it’s not the right time of day, or month, or that blahblahblah, we already did it yesterday with someone else and such BS. (I know, such a party pooper.) But none of that matters anymore BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOD! I KNOW, blows your mind! Right?
D: Heehee.
But seriously, dude. If you ever want to get a good piece of chazer: on me, anytime. Try it. Especially on Yom Kippur. Just once. And of course, if you’re really in search of EMES, then you’ll do it.
Looking forward, man. And don’t get too morose in sefirah. Heehee. (Kidding.)
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Ah the Real Emes gives proof to the real emes that I mentioned earlier…Its all about the Guf-not about the mind. Very unoriginal in Jewish history. I realize Shulem and the other agents of the sutton here on this site have come up with quasi-intellectual reasons for their atheism but I have found them largely to be hollow, shallow attempts to cover up their desires for things the Torah prohibits. Example: the only reason Jews ever got involved with Christianity was to permit Non Jewish women to themselves. Many people nowadays are attempting to permit even more to themselves-Rachmana latzlan. Most like Shulem are failing miserably and stare at the ceiling all night.
Other than those that were beaten physically or emotionally as children everyone else on this website is looking to satisfy their desires. Yippee…so exciting and unique in the USA! Yeah Footsteps organization for mainstreaming these Jews into regular old white trash. Is this a program of the Jewish Federation? Ah so enlightened those Federation old men. Better keep raising money on Super Sunday!
Real Emes: I would love to see more idealism in your apostasy. More real meat and potatoes, more depth. I could learn to appreciate apostasy if it had some depth to it. C’mon–quarter pounders?? Chazer? If you are going to eat treif and chailiv why not something a bit classier than Mickey D’s? Is money tight? Should I email you a guide to breaking all the 10 commandments in NYC in one day?
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Typically these estranged Jews feel the need to write books, newspapers and now blogs discussing and celebrating their activities to help quell the hole and the pain they feel in their kishkes. (c’mon laitzonim fire away!)
Yes – the pain caused by decades of subjugation at the hands of people like you.
You really have no clue. Your smugness is profoundly offensive.
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Haha, Emesrocker, you got me. Truth is, McD is disgusting. BUT! You have to admit, they’re the epitome of TRAYFOS, and as such, it gives it a whole other TAAM. But hey, you’re right. Truth is, I’ve outgrown Mcdonald’s, and I’ve taken to Peter Luger in Williamsburg. Trayf with elegance. So divine. (And my offer still stands!) Nebech, you guys are stuck with your gefilte fish and cholent. Blech!
Also, you’re totally right, that I didn’t focus on anything with DEPTH. I would’ve, except my biggest problem with Thomas Aquinas’s adaptation of the Cosmological Argument for god’s existence is it’s just so fucking BORING! There’s no story! No car chases, nothing blowing up into an awesome fireball or shooting at aliens with tasers. And there are no dirty pictures there either. So screw that.
Also — have you ever read Dovid Gottlieb’s “Living the Truth”? He’s awesome, man. Such delightful prose. And what I like best about him is that I get to use the word sophistry. Such a beautiful little word. Soph-is-tree. Slips off your tongue and makes you want to repeat it all day long.
Also, I think your man the Chofetz Chaim is cute. No homo. You ever see the pictures of him on the cereal boxes? Those eyes! God, I can die. So dreamy. I think if I swung that way I’d totally have the hots for him.
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Yawn…cheap comedy. I wish you a refua shlaima. Typical of one who likes to avoid the real issues. Let me know when you become a fully dysfunctional adult. There is always hope for even people like you. I will not give up on you as much as you have given up on yourself.
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Aww, getting bored with us? C’mon, man? Give us some more of why you love cholent and kosher pizza.
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JDE
Please define “smugness”. Not familiar with the term.
Thank you.
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Reb Shulem,
As I have mentioned in the past, if you really wanted out of the whole Jewish thing, you would not have this blog. Its a sign that there is a still a spark in you that wants to connect to Am Yisroel.
Personally I think you would be better off doing something more productive with the much too much time on your hands.
Have you considered:
1. becoming a worldwide support group leader for sad atheists who think they are no better than the bacteria growing in their showers.
2. becoming a reporter for Al-Jezeera TV.
3. becoming Richard Dawkins personal wardrobe assistant and hair stylist
4. becoming a model for the new Aryan Nation men’s clothing line
5. becoming a web developer for the new Hamas online magazine
6. becoming a research and development scientist with Al Queda.
7. becoming a Boars Head meats taster/recipe writer
There are so many options. Why hang with your downtrodden former co-religionists?
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As I have mentioned in the past, if you really wanted out of the whole Jewish thing, you would not have this blog.
And if you were really secure in your beliefs, you wouldn’t be trolling here, attempting to psychoanalyze Shulem (a task for which you are obviously unqualified).
becoming a worldwide support group leader for sad atheists
When you look up “smugness” in the dictionary, you may also want to look up “projection”.
Personally I would like to see Shulem take up something more productive like water painting, origami or knitting but he seems to be OCD in his quest to be front row center in gehennom.
And, of course, the inevitable threat. It’s all you people have. It’s all you’ve ever had.
You are an execrable piece of garbage.
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So we agree to disagree. Not the first two Jews to ever disagree and not the last.
Not sure what you mean by “execrable” as that is word I have never heard before. Nonetheless, I wish you love, simcha, nachas and all good things!
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OK. I found my answer:
ex·e·cra·ble/ˈeksikrəbəl/
Adjective:
Extremely bad or unpleasant.
Synonyms:
abominable – odious – loathsome – abhorrent – detestable
Wow. I guess need a little self improvement. Thank you for the constructive criticism. I consider friends to only be people who help you grow. THANKS for being a friend. G-d bless you!!
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I really liked the point of this article. I’m so sick of people thinking of formerly Orthodox Jews as uneducated, completely fucked up, drug and alcohol addicted people.
I stay away from all the OTD stuff, because for the most part the people there are not people I would want to associate with. I put myself through undergrad, and am now finishing up an advanced degree.
I do not completely agree with the author’s statement about people pinpointing the reason they left; “I was angry at my parents for depriving me of bacon.” or “I was 19 years old, and I had never heard of Celine Dion!” The reason they/we cite is the straw that broke the camel’s back. I didn’t leave because I couldn’t wear pants, but I hated the whole enforced tznius thing. I didn’t leave so I could have weekends to do what I want, instead of staying in my house reading, I left because I couldn’t live my life like that.
The reason we leave is because our lives become unbearable the way they are. Some people are fine with it, and for some of us, that lifestyle eats away at us-until there is no choice BUT to leave. No one gives up their life, their friends, often their family, for a slice of bacon-even if that’s what they say.
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I think this article is quite important and thank Samuel for writing it , I think it helps moves the chain on Unpious articles, and the general OTD discussion.
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This is a great piece, Sam. All your opinion pieces here on Unpious are insightful, but this one in particular struck me.
I for one would be more interested in hearing the stories of a figure more like Potok’s Asher Lev – too many people fall back on The Chosen archetype. Oh, and the media’s appetite for sensationalism and salaciousness doesn’t help, either. (Come on, NYP. “Jewsy Shore”? Not that I expected anything better from you, but you still manage to disappoint me.)
Anyway, again, well done. Food for thought not only for the ex-Orthodox who are considering sharing their stories, but also for those non-ex-Orthodox who want to hear or read them.
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Miguel your point about The Chosen and My Name is Asher Lev is quite interesting, but interestingly enough in the end the Chosen remains frum, not chassidic but frum.
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Funny thing about Chaim Potoks work is that as a non frum college student, I read and greatly enjoyed his books. They helped to spark my Jewish identity and interest. So even though now I would not recommend his books to those already in the Torah world, they do have some value for frei yidden. I grew from his books. I saw the richness of Torah life in them and they sparked further study which BH I did.
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Hi Sam,
Thanks for a well written article. I guess Im just wondering why you have chosen or not considered to try and integrate an Orthodox life with education?
-AF
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Emes Rocker — No one said Shulem didn’t want to connect to Am Yisrael. He is, isn’t he? Just in a different way than you. That’s the thing… you have a narrow view of what Judaism is. It’s not just frumkeit.
And yes, please write a guide to breaking all 10 commandments in NYC in one day. That’d be brilliant.
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Mocking Jews, Torah and the Creator of the Universe does not seem like much of a connection to Am Yisroel. Sounds more like a connection to many of the Jews enemies. With “friends” like Shulem, who needs enemies?
Like I said earlier, Shulem needs to find other activities to do in life. Its a big world out there, go and get some hobbies.
What is it that makes you believe I am narrow minded? Is it because I have a different opinion than you or do you actually believe I am not able to think in stereo?
EMES ROCKER
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do you actually believe I am not able to think in stereo?
More precisely, not able to think for yourself.
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Please elaborate my inability to think for myself. No one I know has ever said that about me. Is it because my thinking has led me to different conclusion than you? Please explain as I am always open to learning more about myself.
Thanks
ER
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Emes Rocker I really wondered how Chaim Potok sparked your interest in Judasim ,even though Chaim Potok does show a lot of beauty in Orthodox Judaism, But I believe his conclusion is that it is limiting , and for some in order to follow their passions and or interests, they needed to leave the confines of halacha and orthodox culture.
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When you are a non Orthodox Jew and you live among self hating Jews like I did for my childhood and then you read a book full of descriptions of beautiful Jewish customs, practice, culture and basic Torah ideas it has an impact in forming a positive Jewish identity. Although his characters seem to be looking into things beyond the typical Chassidic life, they are steeped in Jewish culture and traditions which I always found fascinating.
Although some on this site might be bored with those traditions, when you are devoid of them and deeply involved in the shallow secular world of TV, movies and sports like I was, these traditions are very appealing as an anchor of kindness and normalcy in this crazy world.
Also, I do not see Potoks characters as abandoning Yiddishkeit. They are just attempting to combine an interest in art, music and secular studies with Yiddishkeit. Modern Chassidus’s exclusion of all of these pursuits really has no place in true Torah hashkofa. Many of our rishonim and achronim had great knowledge of secular subjects as well as Torah. Rambam, Maharal, Ramchal come to mind and there are many others. The all or nothing approach of 20th century Chassidism is a new phenomenon.
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Emes Rocker,
Now and then even poor and obnoxious arguments need to be countered–because, just possibly, there may be someone who hasn’t yet seen the obvious answers.
You claim that the Baal Teshuvah’s journey is heroic while that of one who leave’s Orthodoxy (or Judaism, overall) is merely a chasing after pleasures. Here are a few of the many problems with your case:
1. Many thoughtful frum people who leave Jewish life do so for reasons of intellectual honesty. Ironically, they do it for “Emes.” Truth is not measured by length of peyos or ingredients in one’s burger. Truth is measured by what is accurate. And intellectual honesty is measured not by how many gedolim one can name, or how many blatt of Gemorah one has turned, but rather in living in consonance with what one has responsible reasons to believe is true.
2. Many who leave have given up family approval, friendships, vocational and financial opportunity, shidduch opportunities, and more–none of which they would have traded if the objectives were only to eat cheesebergers. Instead, they did it for reasons of conscience: they simply could not go on living what seemed to them to be a lie, and could not imagine teachng their children lies. Yes, for reasons heroic.
3. There are, of course, some who go OTD for no better reasons than rebelliousness and crude appetite–but there are BTs who become religious for no better reason than rebelling against their own families, and/or wanting a ready-made referral network, or wanting community belonging, or needing to overcome the fear of death with dogmas about afterlife, or having the OCD-like need for there to be one “right” and exacting way to do every little detail of life, or–in extreme cases–even recognizing the relatively easier opportunities for child molestation. (I witnessed one such BT teaching at a yeshiva) etc., etc., etc.
The truth that is evident to any thoughtful and honest mind is that there are both noble and ignoble intentions possible for those joining a religious community as well as for those leaving one. For most people, there is something of a mix, but the relative nobility of that mix can and does vary greatly between individuals. Pretending otherwise–that “Only people who live my lifestyle are noble” is not only self-serving, it’s unintelligent and betrays rank ignorance of human psychology.
4. Even if leaving Orthodoxy magically made everything easier in life, and even if becoming a BT made everything in life much more difficult–with no compensating benefits–this still would not settle which choice was more heroic…unless one defines heroic as creating for oneself great difficulty. In that case, to be a real hero, one would do things like crawl to work, eat steak with a spoon, drink water with a fork, and so on. Incurring difficulty is only heroic if it is necessary in the pursuit of a noble end. Becoming a BT is, arguably, not at all necessarily noble because far from all BTs have done the “heavy lifting” of sincere thinking on what they could responsibly believe to be true. Some have, but many have not. And those who have not have chosen superstition and the highs of supernatural devotion and supernatural meaning, etc.,…over painful intellectual honesty. Therefore, the difficulties incurred in this ignoble avoidance of intellectual honesty are not at all necessarily heroic. Instead, would argue the agnostic, they are in many cases prices paid for the non-heroic exercise of self-serving self-deception.
5. Suggesting that the owner of this magazine/blog consider the alternative of becoming a reporter for Al Jazeera, or affiliating with Al Queda or the Aryan Nation or Hamas, is–beyond being obviously degrading and inciteful things to say to a Jew–richly ironic. It is you, and not he, who is closed-minded and religiously dogmatic and harshly tribalistic. Any fair-minded observer can see who is more similar to, and likely to better fit in with, those hateful and bigoted groups.
By way of elaboration, it is well known that Hitler told his inner circle in the 1930s that he could recruit people to the Nazi party from the communists but not from the capitalists. (Because even though the communists and Nazis were supposedly enemies, their need to belong to mass movements with rigid ideologies reflected an underlying deep psychological similarity.)
Emes Rocker, based on your previous comments, I do not have the realistic basis to hope that your attitudes will be in any way moderated by anything I’ve written here. Instead, I’m writing this out of the possibility that (now or in years to come) some honest and searching soul may come across this thread and find a little more encouragement or clarity.
As for you: I bless you that you will come to learn a bit of humility, a bit of compassion and respect for the motives of those who have made other choices on life’s path…and a bit of imagination to realize that the human heart is far more complex than the primary colors in which you are tempted to paint it. These would be, of course, admirable spiritual advances. Peyos optional.
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Once Upon a Moishe,
First of all in all honesty I must mention that you are a gifted writer. I wish you much success with your talent for writing.
There are many things that I could write in reply to your points, but I would rather do that privately rather than in this forum. You can call me if you wish.
I agree with many of the things that you wrote especially your points in paragraph 3.
However, the point I made regarding the heroism of becoming a BT vs. the non heroism of becoming “OTD” (temporarily) was not based on particular nuances of these paths in modern day life. It was based on the etzem makeup of human psychology, drives and character.
A few examples to bring out my point:
Great athletes are not born overnight. The reason they have become great is because they have spent many years training, depriving themselves of certain foods, activities and pleasures that non athletes indulge in. They often spend many years alone practicing to become the best in their fields.
Great musicians are also not born overnight. Anyone who has heard a great classical pianist must realize that although he or she may have an inborn talent, nonetheless the great music they create is the product of many years sitting alone practicing and giving up many of the pleasures and activities that their friends engage in to spend several hours per day practicing.
The same can be said for one who decides (for whatever reason-l’shma or lo’lishma) to start living within the guidelines of Torah. The things that one has to give up are deeply ingrained behaviors that are common to all of mankind. They are forced to go against the tide of 99.9% of people in the world. The amount of emotional and spiritual muscle that one has to muster up is similar to but far exceeds the self sacrifice of the great athlete and musician mentioned above since taking on a life of Torah observance controls and encompasses all aspects of human behavior from the way we put on our shoes to the way we eat, drink, sleep and raise families.
I realize that one who chas v’shalom goes the other way, has to give up very important family approval, friendships, vocational and financial opportunity and shidduch opportunities. There is no question that it is quite difficult. However it does not entail the strengh of character of the examples above. It does not run against the basic physical and psychological makeup of a person. New friendships can be formed, new dating prospects can be found (millions more), new financial opportunities etc…(7 days of work instead of 6) However, saying NO to the basic human desires and behaviors accepted and celebrated by all of humankind does not have to be accomplished.
Therein lies the point that going OTD is non heroic.
As for the intellectual honesty you mentioned, I could explain intellectually the basis of my belief but I cannot prove it 100%. At the end of the day some faith is required. Like I said, I have come to these intellectual beliefs through years of study but if your study has led you to other beliefs then I can’t expect you to believe in mine.I fully admit that I am willing to forego true intellectual proof and stake my claim on generations of very intelligent Jews before me. I am willing to sit humbly on the shoulders of giants and hope for a good and happy life.
Emes Rocker
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Emes Rocker,
I appreciate your gracious words about my writing, as well as the polite tone of your response, overall.
On the substance of the issues raised, I would offer a few thoughts:
1. You write: “There are many things that I could write in reply to your points, but I would rather do that privately rather than in this forum. You can call me if you wish.”
When a person says they’d rather not address my points in a public forum, I am happy to respect that. Of course, though, simply assuring others that one has compelling responses is not to be confused with having delivered those responses.
As for me, I have always found written opinions and arguments posted where all can see them–in other words, deliberative communication in the semi-public arena–to be the best guarantor of clear and honest discourse. Light and air are healthy influences.
But, out of respect for your preference, I will limit myself to addressing only the points you’ve made in this response to me.
2. You write: “I fully admit that I am willing to forego true intellectual proof and stake my claim on generations of very intelligent Jews before me.”
The argument from authority–or tradition–is a famously insufficient basis upon which to accept Judaism’s (or any other religion’s or ideology’s) beliefs. This is not only because there were and are very many intelligent Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, etc., who believed and still today believe things very different from Judaism–and, therefore, if truly and consistently relying on the supernatural beliefs of intelligent others one would have to believe many contradictory religions–there were and are Jews as intelligent as the ones you rely upon, who yet do not believe in religion. From “Acher” (the rebbe of Rav Meir) to Spinoza to Einstein and Freud, there have been many famous intelligent non-religious individuals among the Jewish people, and an untold number who have quietly gone about living their lives without religious beliefs, though their names are not familiar to us. (By the way, though Freud was an atheist, Einsten and Spinoza were more open-minded to some definition or existence of a Greater Force, but were clearly not believers in any organized religion, including Judaism. Still, of course, there are and were many additional brilliant atheists, too, whether of Jewish or non-Jewish origin.)
And surely it would not be reasonable to confidently dismiss the likes of Spinoza, Freud, and Einstein as not being as intelligent as the ones one chooses to rely upon.
Moreover, even the brilliant religious people of ancient generations were, objectively, working with far less information and knowledge and evidence than is available today. The scientific and philosophical landscape is so different today than it was thousands and hundreds of years ago, that there is no responsible way to remain confident that even the most brilliant rabbis would have remained with their beliefs–had they known then what we know today. To be clear: Considering human nature, I suspect most would have remained with their beliefs–just as most leaders and practitioners of every religion and political belief system remain with their beliefs–but I suspect that many would have abandoned them, too. (Indeed, that is what has happened to many of the “best and brightest” of talmidei chachamim when the walls of the ghettos came down and scientific and philosophical information became more available to them, and that is what is again happening now with the help of the Internet, increasing waves of some of the best and brightest of current Orthodoxy no longer believe what their religion teaches.)
But most to the point–and illustrated by the aforementioned welter of contradictory beliefs held by all manner of intelligent people–is the basic psychological observation that intelligence has little to do with either the intent toward, or the capacity for, deep honesty. A man terrified of a certain set of facts, and unable or unwilling to face them, will use the mind he has to oppose those facts: If he is of low intelligence, he might simply not think about them and indulge in crude avoidance, or he might mock them and stoop to name-calling or carricature attacks on those who have accepted them, and so on; if he is of high intelligence, he might construct various arguments and theories and justifications for opposing those facts. But neither person is necessarily being more honest. Denial is a defense mechanism, but so is rationalization. Again, intelligence is unrelated to honesty or to the capacity to absorb painful truth.
And so the bracing fact is that we cannot responsibly allow others to do our thinking for us. If we do our best and most honest thinking on matters of religion we may still end up mistaken; but if we allow others to do our thinking on such matters we are just as likely to be mistaken–and are guaranteed to be irresponsible, too.
3. On the matter of the BT supposedly being more heroic than the OTD: In praising the Baal T’shuvah, you write: “The things that one has to give up are deeply ingrained behaviors that are common to all of mankind. They are forced to go against the tide of 99.9% of people in the world. The amount of emotional and spiritual muscle that one has to muster up is similar to but far exceeds the self sacrifice of the great athlete and musician mentioned above since taking on a life of Torah observance controls and encompasses all aspects of human behavior from the way we put on our shoes to the way we eat, drink, sleep and raise families.” You then contrast this with the choice of one who goes OTD, and conclude that those sacrifices are not nearly as great.
In response, I’ll mention a few things: First, what you correctly identify as a great sacrifice–leaving one’s community–is generally at least as difficult for the frum person going OTD as it is for the BT. There is no fair basis, it seems to me, upon which to give the BT more credit on that count. Indeed, frum communities tend to be far more insular and pressurized and conformity-oriented than secular communities; moreover, there is such a deep sense of guilt instilled in religious people from earliest days about the unthinkable act of leaving religion, and the eternal hell one will suffer for this–yet there is no equivalent overwhelming guilt and threat to one leaving secular society. So the pressure to remain and the courage it takes to leave, and to go against the “99.9%” of those whose opinion one finds important, is arguably stronger for one going OTD. (Remember, it doesn’t take courage for an American in Iowa or even California to be different from a billion Chinese or a billion Indians. What takes courage is to choose to be different from those one has been identified with–those of one’s community.)
And let’s be clear about the sacrifice, and also the compensations, of leaving one’s group. Both for an OTD and a BT there is discomfort in being different from one’s original group. There is, however, the compensating hope that one will fit in to a new group…(and sometimes the hope that one can be more accepted, even celebrated, to start over and do better, in the new group than in one’s old group). The BT tries hard to fit in to the frum community, and the OTD tries hard to find friends in the secular world. With some complications–and barring significant pre-existing emotional or social problems–both BTs and OTDs tend to fit in to their new groups. (And there are many additional “perks” for the BT that are not available to the OTD, and many available to the OTD that are not available to the BT.)
Most to the point, however, whereas your conception of heroism seems to focus on people restricting or disciplining their concrete behaviors–what they eat, how they dress or have sex, etc.–to me heroism is not nearly as limited to the concrete. After all, if simply restraining or disciplining one’s physical wants, or being different, is heroic, then the Buddhist monk meditating for hours a day in a cave, the nudist vegetarian living mosquito-bitten and emaciated in the woods, the Indian fellow letting his nails grow to 5 feet long, and all manner of other self-denying and unusual lifestyles–not to mention one who chooses to join the Amish or the Quakers or a Christian Monastery–are at least as heroic as the BT.
No, merely choosing a lifestyle of restriction is not necessarily heroic. Instead, a good working definition of (moral) heroism to me is “exerting great effort or sacrifice in the service of what can responsibly be believed to be noble.”
Without the second half of that definition, the Crusaders, who undertook great difficulties and sacrifice to fight wars on the other side of the world–but who also killed and raped and pillaged untold numbers of “unbelievers” like our ancestors–would have to be counted as heroic, too. Indeed, history is replete with people dying for their religions, living in tedious servitude to their religions, and all too often, killing for their religions. Doing difficult or uncomfortable things is not necessarily heroic; what is heroic is making sure that the difficult things you do–and impose on others-are truly justified.
Overall, please remember that although I believe even the most sincere of BTs to be terribly mistaken in their conclusions, I have not argued that a BT cannot be heroic in his choice to become religious. If his best thinking led him to believe such a choice was based on truth, such a change can indeed be heroic. I am only responding to your contention that someone going OTD cannot be heroic…and, indeed, projecting onto OTDs what seemed to me to be a set of unnecessarily crude intentions and motives.
Emes Rocker, I will be happy to give you the last word on this topic. Or, if you prefer not to respond I will respect that, too. I do wish you well–and may we both see ever more, and be willing and able to see ever more.
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2. YOU COMMENTED ON MY SENTENCE: “I fully admit that I am willing to forego true intellectual proof and stake my claim on generations of very intelligent Jews before me.”
RESPONSE: To clarify when I meant “true intellectual proof” I was simply stating the creation of bechira in this world. The world was set up within the confines of human bechira and hence 100% proof is not part of creation. However that being said, the Torah, the existence of the Jewish people and modern science strongly point in the direction of a G-d, a special and unique people and a need to follow the laws of this G-d and His people. The idea that G-d, the Torah and the Jewish people are one unit is one of the deepest secrets of the world but I am certainly not going to explain this yesod on the internet. Please excuse my brevity but just like a brain surgeon is not going to explain brain surgery to a non brain surgeon, I cannot explain this great sod of the universe to the world wide web. You can contact me if you would like to study this subject in depth.
YOU WROTE: The argument from authority–or tradition–is a famously insufficient basis upon which to accept Judaism’s (or any other religion’s or ideology’s) beliefs. This is not only because there were and are very many intelligent Catholics and Protestants and Mormons and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, etc., who believed and still today believe things very different from Judaism–and, therefore, if truly and consistently relying on the supernatural beliefs of intelligent others one would have to believe many contradictory religions–there were and are Jews as intelligent as the ones you rely upon, who yet do not believe in religion…..
RESPONSE: No nation on earth is doing the same religious practices today as they were 3500 years ago except the Jews. No nation has the same hilcos tefillin as they did thousands of years ago etc…Ponder that honestly and you will see that the argument from authority–or tradition, although correctly a weak argument for all other religions and nations, nonetheless for the Jewish people it is an undeniable fact(or if you will allow me to say miracle).
YOU WROTE:
And surely it would not be reasonable to confidently dismiss the likes of Spinoza, Freud, and Einstein as not being as intelligent as the ones one chooses to rely upon.
RESPONSE: Spinoza went mad, Freud and Einstein were geniuses but never learned a single page of gemara. Not a very strong argument. I am also certain that you can put Freud and Einstein in one hand and Rav Moshe Feinstein ZTL in the other and Rav Moshe would outweigh both. (I can’t prove that…but it is my honest opinion).
YOU WROTE: Moreover, even the brilliant religious people of the ancient generations were, objectively, working with far less information and knowledge and evidence than is available today. The scientific and philosophical landscape is so different today than it was thousands and hundreds of years ago, that there is no responsible way to remain confident that even the most brilliant rabbis would have remained with their beliefs–had they known then what we know today…
RESPONSE: This one is the easiest to knock off. All you need to do is spend a few minutes a day watching the nature videos on http://www.nationalgeographic.com to see how our advanced technology and scientific knowledge has made it easier than ever before to see the infinitely complex design in nature. Modern science if honestly studied on a completely rational level can easily bring one to one to the conclusion that the complexity of life must only be the work of a Creator. (I know this is a cliche, but I am not religious enough to be an atheist.) Our generation’s incredible advances in technology has made belief in a Creator more clearer to millions of people than ever before. Here is one simple example http://www.simchashachaim.com/venus-fly-trap-video.html
YOU WROTE: On the matter of the BT supposedly being more heroic than the OTD: In praising the Baal T’shuvah, you write: “The things that one has to give up are deeply ingrained behaviors that are common to all of mankind. They are forced to go against the tide of 99.9% of people in the world. The amount of emotional and spiritual muscle that one has to muster up is similar to but far exceeds the self sacrifice of the great athlete and musician mentioned above since taking on a life of Torah observance controls and encompasses all aspects of human behavior from the way we put on our shoes to the way we eat, drink, sleep and raise families.” You then contrast this with the choice of one who goes OTD, and conclude that those sacrifices are not nearly as great….
RESPONSE: I really can’t explain this point any further to you because it simply might be something you would need to experience to understand. In my humble opinion, this is a very obvious point which needs no further explanation. Perhaps for frum from birth people its a mavin yavin thing. But for seriously committed BT’s its very pshut. Sorry I can’t add anymore on the topic.
Wishing you great success in all that you do!
EMES ROCKER
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Emes Rocker,
As mentioned in my previous post, I will give you the last word–by not responding substantively. (I disagree so strongly with your latest arguments that I’m tempted to change that plan…but won’t.)
Best wishes to us both for ever more interest in, and capacity for, truth…and to find peace, even fulfillment, within that framework, irrespective of whether that truth is what we hoped it would be.
I do appreciate the civil tone of our brief debate. And in the language of our people I wish you “Bruchuh V’Hatzluchuh”
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Thanks brother.
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It’s an interesting article. I think the problem lies in the fact our country was founded in part due to a distrust of religious authority. The media is only fond of religion when it displays no religious authority, when it doesn’t demand anything. So the story of an ex-Orthodox, ipso facto becomes a story about “pathology”. We see Hasidim, for example, walking around in long dark coats in the summer time, and we think: “irrational”, and “oppressive”.
It would be nice to see ex-Orthodox who don’t have a contempt for Orthodoxy, but that seems hard to find. I understand that there are some very human reasons for this. I knew a woman who was Orthodox who eventually became a Baptist because she liked the way the Baptists treated her versus the way those in her own Jewish community treated her. But it was still a very human struggle: it wasn’t easy to walk away from being Jewish, but she found it hard to keep a Jewish home with a husband who was mentally abusive and not supportive. It’s a story that needs to be talked about: a lesson for all Jews.
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We see Hasidim, for example, walking around in long dark coats in the summer time, and we think: “irrational”, and “oppressive”.
Gee, I wonder why? [/sarcasm]
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